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  • #31
    Originally posted by 538280
    Your list for Manny is complete, your list for Allen isn't. Here is a much fuller list of Allen's competitors:

    NL
    Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Orlando Cepeda, Billy Williams, Willie McCovey, Pete Rose, Joe Morgan, Willie Stargell, Lou Brock, Ron Santo, Vada Pinson, Jimmy Wynn, Ken Boyer, Tony Perez, Johnny Bench, Ernie Banks, Joe Torre Rusty Staub, Matty Alou

    AL
    Harmon Killebrew, Carl Yaztremski, Frank Howard, Frank Robinson again, Reggie Jackson, Rod Carew, Carlton Fisk, Tony Oliva, Luis Aparicio, Sal Bando, Boog Powell, Bobby Murcer, Norm Cash, Reggie Smith, Roy White, George Scott
    Many of Allen's rivals were WAY past their primes. Pinson, Banks were not truly competitive anymore after 1964.

    And some of his AL rivals in 1973 were past their glory days too. Yaz, Oliva, Robinson, Aparicio?, Cash? Why are Aparicio/Cash included for the 1973-74 period.

    Bill
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-04-2006, 08:10 PM.

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    • #32
      --Ah, you did do a little fact checking after posting eh Bill. Makes my chiding unneccesary. All Manny's "rivals" weren't neccesarily having their best years against him either. Both lists were streched a little to make whichever side look better.
      Last edited by leecemark; 03-04-2006, 08:18 PM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by 538280
        Your list for Manny is complete, your list for Allen isn't. Here is a much fuller list of Allen's competitors:

        NL
        Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Orlando Cepeda, Billy Williams, Willie McCovey, Pete Rose, Joe Morgan, Willie Stargell, Lou Brock, Ron Santo, Vada Pinson, Jimmy Wynn, Ken Boyer, Tony Perez, Johnny Bench, Ernie Banks, Joe Torre Rusty Staub, Matty Alou

        AL
        Harmon Killebrew, Carl Yaztremski, Frank Howard, Frank Robinson again, Reggie Jackson, Rod Carew, Carlton Fisk, Tony Oliva, Luis Aparicio, Sal Bando, Boog Powell, Bobby Murcer, Norm Cash, Reggie Smith, Roy White, George Scott

        Those guys are better than Manny's competitors. If you think otherwise, then you're being buffaloed by gaudy traditional stats.
        I think you're being buffaloed with league quality adjustments.
        "I was pitching one day when my glasses clouded up on me. I took them off to polish them. When I looked up to the plate, I saw Jimmie Foxx. The sight of him terrified me so much that I haven't been able to wear glasses since." - Left Gomez

        "(Lou) Gehrig never learned that a ballplayer couldn't be good every day." - Hank Gowdy

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Myankee4life
          I think you're being buffaloed with league quality adjustments.
          This isn't the deadball era we're talking about here man, I think Manny's league was very strong historically, just a bit behind Allen's. I don't give Manny a huge LQ knock against Allen, just a very small one. Manny's league doesn't have any competitiors near Mays, Aaron, and Robinson.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by 538280
            This isn't the deadball era we're talking about here man, I think Manny's league was very strong historically, just a bit behind Allen's. I don't give Manny a huge LQ knock against Allen, just a very small one. Manny's league doesn't have any competitiors near Mays, Aaron, and Robinson.

            Even if I give you those 3....how about the other players. A league is not made up of 3 players you know.
            "I was pitching one day when my glasses clouded up on me. I took them off to polish them. When I looked up to the plate, I saw Jimmie Foxx. The sight of him terrified me so much that I haven't been able to wear glasses since." - Left Gomez

            "(Lou) Gehrig never learned that a ballplayer couldn't be good every day." - Hank Gowdy

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Myankee4life
              Even if I give you those 3....how about the other players. A league is not made up of 3 players you know.
              All right. The rest in the NL, after those three are like this:

              Roberto Clemente, Orlando Cepeda, Billy Williams, Willie McCovey, Pete Rose, Joe Morgan, Willie Stargell, Lou Brock, Ron Santo, Ken Boyer, Tony Perez, Johnny Bench, Ernie Banks

              That's just as good as the top echelon guys from Manny's era. Add in the big 3 and it's not that close.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by 538280
                This isn't the deadball era we're talking about here man, I think Manny's league was very strong historically, just a bit behind Allen's. I don't give Manny a huge LQ knock against Allen, just a very small one. Manny's league doesn't have any competitiors near Mays, Aaron, and Robinson.
                Griffey, A-Rod, Thomas, Thome, Degado, etc.

                A-Rod matches up well with Aaron, Griffey (in the 1990s) matches up well with Mays.
                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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