Manny vs Allen

[Honus Wagner Rules]

This isn't the deadball era we're talking about here man, I think Manny's league was very strong historically, just a bit behind Allen's. I don't give Manny a huge LQ knock against Allen, just a very small one. Manny's league doesn't have any competitiors near Mays, Aaron, and Robinson.

Griffey, A-Rod, Thomas, Thome, Degado, etc.

A-Rod matches up well with Aaron, Griffey (in the 1990s) matches up well with Mays.

[538280]

Even if I give you those 3....how about the other players. A league is not made up of 3 players you know.

All right. The rest in the NL, after those three are like this:

Roberto Clemente, Orlando Cepeda, Billy Williams, Willie McCovey, Pete Rose, Joe Morgan, Willie Stargell, Lou Brock, Ron Santo, Ken Boyer, Tony Perez, Johnny Bench, Ernie Banks

That's just as good as the top echelon guys from Manny's era. Add in the big 3 and it's not that close.

[Myankee4life]

This isn't the deadball era we're talking about here man, I think Manny's league was very strong historically, just a bit behind Allen's. I don't give Manny a huge LQ knock against Allen, just a very small one. Manny's league doesn't have any competitiors near Mays, Aaron, and Robinson.

Even if I give you those 3....how about the other players. A league is not made up of 3 players you know.

[538280]

I think you're being buffaloed with league quality adjustments.

This isn't the deadball era we're talking about here man, I think Manny's league was very strong historically, just a bit behind Allen's. I don't give Manny a huge LQ knock against Allen, just a very small one. Manny's league doesn't have any competitiors near Mays, Aaron, and Robinson.

[Myankee4life]

Your list for Manny is complete, your list for Allen isn't. Here is a much fuller list of Allen's competitors:

NL
Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Orlando Cepeda, Billy Williams, Willie McCovey, Pete Rose, Joe Morgan, Willie Stargell, Lou Brock, Ron Santo, Vada Pinson, Jimmy Wynn, Ken Boyer, Tony Perez, Johnny Bench, Ernie Banks, Joe Torre Rusty Staub, Matty Alou

AL
Harmon Killebrew, Carl Yaztremski, Frank Howard, Frank Robinson again, Reggie Jackson, Rod Carew, Carlton Fisk, Tony Oliva, Luis Aparicio, Sal Bando, Boog Powell, Bobby Murcer, Norm Cash, Reggie Smith, Roy White, George Scott

Those guys are better than Manny's competitors. If you think otherwise, then you're being buffaloed by gaudy traditional stats.

I think you're being buffaloed with league quality adjustments.

[leecemark]

--Ah, you did do a little fact checking after posting eh Bill. Makes my chiding unneccesary. All Manny's "rivals" weren't neccesarily having their best years against him either. Both lists were streched a little to make whichever side look better.

[Bill Burgess]

Your list for Manny is complete, your list for Allen isn't. Here is a much fuller list of Allen's competitors:

NL
Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Orlando Cepeda, Billy Williams, Willie McCovey, Pete Rose, Joe Morgan, Willie Stargell, Lou Brock, Ron Santo, Vada Pinson, Jimmy Wynn, Ken Boyer, Tony Perez, Johnny Bench, Ernie Banks, Joe Torre Rusty Staub, Matty Alou

AL
Harmon Killebrew, Carl Yaztremski, Frank Howard, Frank Robinson again, Reggie Jackson, Rod Carew, Carlton Fisk, Tony Oliva, Luis Aparicio, Sal Bando, Boog Powell, Bobby Murcer, Norm Cash, Reggie Smith, Roy White, George Scott

Many of Allen's rivals were WAY past their primes. Pinson, Banks were not truly competitive anymore after 1964.

And some of his AL rivals in 1973 were past their glory days too. Yaz, Oliva, Robinson, Aparicio?, Cash? Why are Aparicio/Cash included for the 1973-74 period.

Bill

[538280]

Frank Thomas, Albert Belle, Juan Gonzalez, Mark Mcgwire, Ken Griffey JR, Alex Rodriguez, Edgar Martinez, Nomar Garciaparra, Jim Thome, Troy Glaus, Richie Sexson, David Justice, Bernie Williams, Paul Oneil, Derek Jeter, Mark Texiera, Ichiro Suzuki, David Ortiz, Vladimir Guerrero, Miguel Tejada, Jason Giambi, Eric Chavez, Mo Vaughn, Carlos Delgado .....etc

Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Orlando Cepeda, Billy Williams, Willie Mccovey, Harmon Killebrew, Carl Yaztremski, Frank Howard......

Its not even close...the AL of Manny's is far and away more competive than Allen's.

Your list for Manny is complete, your list for Allen isn't. Here is a much fuller list of Allen's competitors:

NL
Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Orlando Cepeda, Billy Williams, Willie McCovey, Pete Rose, Joe Morgan, Willie Stargell, Lou Brock, Ron Santo, Vada Pinson, Jimmy Wynn, Ken Boyer, Tony Perez, Johnny Bench, Ernie Banks, Joe Torre Rusty Staub, Matty Alou

AL
Harmon Killebrew, Carl Yaztremski, Frank Howard, Frank Robinson again, Reggie Jackson, Rod Carew, Carlton Fisk, Tony Oliva, Luis Aparicio, Sal Bando, Boog Powell, Bobby Murcer, Norm Cash, Reggie Smith, Roy White, George Scott

Those guys are better than Manny's competitors. If you think otherwise, then you're being buffaloed by gaudy traditional stats.

[Bill Burgess]

Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Orlando Cepeda, Billy Williams, Willie Mccovey, Harmon Killebrew, Carl Yaztremski, Frank Howard......

More rivals of Dick Allen:

Ken Boyer, Joe Morgan, Pete Rose, Felippe Alou, Willie Stargell, Ron Santo, Johnny Bench, Tony Perez.

[Myankee4life]

Frank Thomas, Albert Belle, Juan Gonzalez, Mark Mcgwire, Ken Griffey JR, Alex Rodriguez, Edgar Martinez, Nomar Garciaparra, Jim Thome, Troy Glaus, Richie Sexson, David Justice, Bernie Williams, Paul Oneil, Derek Jeter, Mark Texiera, Ichiro Suzuki, David Ortiz, Vladimir Guerrero, Miguel Tejada, Jason Giambi, Eric Chavez, Mo Vaughn, Carlos Delgado .....etc

Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Orlando Cepeda, Billy Williams, Willie Mccovey, Harmon Killebrew, Carl Yaztremski, Frank Howard......

Its not even close...the AL of Manny's is far and away more competive than Allen's.

[leecemark]

--Mays, Aaron and Robinson were in their primes and in his league when Allen came up. Are they the "soft competitors" Richie had to deal with? Who in the AL of Manny Ramirez is tougher than those three? Toss in Clemente, Cepeda, Williams and McCovey and thats a pretty tough group of competitors IMO. Then when he moved to the AL he had Killebrew, Yaz, Robinson again, Frank Howard, etc to compete with.

[Myankee4life]

Like Allen isn't the same? The only difference is that he doesn't put up "otherworldly" numbers because of the era he played in. Allen was a top one hitter of his era, never mind top three. Want to put them in context? Look at league leads. Allen has more black and gray ink than Manny. His numbers, in context, were more "otherworldly".

Allen had more league leads because the decade had less top echelons than Manny's. Don tell me that the average player was better therefore league leads were harder to get. He's not competing with the average player....he's competing with the best...which in Manny's era are plentiful. Put Manny in Allen's timeframe and he'd lead year in and year out. In conclusion Allen had "soft competitors" in relation to Manny.

[538280]

went with Manny Ramirez. Dick Allen should be in the HOF and is definitely underrated. But Manny is a hitting savant. Dude is just a machine. year in year out he just puts up otherworld numbers. Top three hitter of this era.

Like Allen isn't the same? The only difference is that he doesn't put up "otherworldly" numbers because of the era he played in. Allen was a top one hitter of his era, never mind top three. Want to put them in context? Look at league leads. Allen has more black and gray ink than Manny. His numbers, in context, were more "otherworldly".

[rockin500]

went with Manny Ramirez. Dick Allen should be in the HOF and is definitely underrated. But Manny is a hitting savant. Dude is just a machine. year in year out he just puts up otherworld numbers. Top three hitter of this era.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Sultan,

I wasn't questioning the validity of Win Shares, I was just joking around. The fact that in six different seasons the MVP voters considered Manny Ramirez on of the top six players in the AL is relavent in my view.

Gotcha, my bad then. It's not relevant in my view, but disagreements are healthy