How Great Was Lefty Grove?

[BigRon]

At his best Roberts was as good as or slightly better than Spahn, but Spahn was remarkably, consistently good for one of the longest periods in history. That's what makes him a top 9-10-11 pitcher. Roberts did a good job of "re-inventing" himself, but couldn't match Spahn's run (few could), so ends up around top 20-25 for most observers.

[Los Bravos]

At his best Roberts was as good as or slightly better than Spahn, but Spahn was remarkably, consistently good for one of the longest periods in history. That's what makes him a top 9-10-11 pitcher. Roberts did a good job of "re-inventing" himself, but couldn't match Spahn's run (few could), so ends up around top 20-25 for most observers.

That about covers it. I'm not going to press on with this tangent. I don't have a particularly strong opinion on the Grove controversy one way or another.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

At his best Roberts was as good as or slightly better than Spahn, but Spahn was remarkably, consistently good for one of the longest periods in history. That's what makes him a top 9-10-11 pitcher. Roberts did a good job of "re-inventing" himself, but couldn't match Spahn's run (few could), so ends up around top 20-25 for most observers.

Nothing new on this board with Spahn as the subject going on for years.
All those years, that consistency not considered by some members here.

[ol' aches and pains]

Nothing new on this board with Spahn as the subject going on for years.
All those years, that consistency not considered by some members here.

I know pitching wins aren't valued much anymore, but if you average 20 wins a year for 17 straight years, you're doing something right.
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[SHOELESSJOE3]

I know pitching wins aren't valued much anymore, but if you average 20 wins a year for 17 straight years, you're doing something right.
19caa8a6ca2f5348eb3696b3b9e3a2cc.jpg

For sure, he did win 363 games 5th most in modern times, 382 complete games and 13 seasons 20 or more wins.
To his team he was probably near the top in "value to his team" as most others were.
That has to count some in evaluating him.

[Bothrops Atrox]

There is always a bit of cause and effect confusion. Spahn won 363 games because he was great. He wasn't great because he won 363 games. A pitcher can be about as great with 150 fewer wins, but pitchers aren't hitting 360 wins without being great.

[bluesky5]

I know pitching wins aren't valued much anymore, but if you average 20 wins a year for 17 straight years, you're doing something right.

Was Spahn expected to make the Braves out of spring training before the war interrupted his career? I’ve read almost nothing about his career.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

There is always a bit of cause and effect confusion. Spahn won 363 games because he was great. He wasn't great because he won 363 games. A pitcher can be about as great with 150 fewer wins, but pitchers aren't hitting 360 wins without being great.

Who will debate that. Seems to me that his wins, complete games and longevity does not carry much weight with "some" on this board.
I also pointed out great or not aside, that was of great value to his team.

[ol' aches and pains]

Was Spahn expected to make the Braves out of spring training before the war interrupted his career? I’ve read almost nothing about his career.

Spahn was told by his manager with the Braves (Casey Stengel) in1942 that he would never make it as a pitcher in the Major Leagues. Then he had to go fight WWII. He saw combat in Germany in 1945. He didn't win a game in the Majors until 1946, at age 25. Then he began "compiling" his 363 wins that many here are so anxious to dismiss.

Spahn ended his playing career with the Mets in 1965. His manager was Casey Stengel. Spahn used to say he knew Stengel before and after he was a genius.

[Chadwick]

Top 10 Pitchers, All-Time
1. Roger Clemens
2. Walter Johnson
3. Greg Maddux
4. Cy Young
5. Tom Seaver
6. Randy Johnson
7. Lefty Grove
8. Satchel Paige
9. Pete Alexander
10. Pedro Martinez

[Yuri89]

I dont know about Lefty Grove Walter Johnson Maddux Grover cleveland and whoever.


But if I have to pick the GOAT that would be Clemens. He might be a cheater, but dude was a monster

[Los Bravos]

I will never understand that attitude, as long as I live.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Spahn was told by his manager with the Braves (Casey Stengel) in1942 that he would never make it as a pitcher in the Major Leagues. Then he had to go fight WWII. He saw combat in Germany in 1945. He didn't win a game in the Majors until 1946, at age 25. Then he began "compiling" his 363 wins that many here are so anxious to dismiss.

Exactly. Put it this way, some other great and very good pitchers pitched careers in pitcher's parks, pitched in Spahn's era, same conditions, era before and after him and the only modern day pitcher with more than his 363 , Walter Johnson with 411 and Mathewson and Alexander with 373. In later years 350 + Clemens and Maddux close.

Not saying on wins alone that moves Spahn that far up the list. All of the above are over him Johnson, Mathewson, Alexander, Clemens, Maddux and some others.
We've heard it before by some, wins do not tell the whole story, agreed. But how many won 350 plus.

Don't care to hear those who pitched their whole career or almost their whole career in the pre 1900, a whole different game mostly hitting dirty beat up ball left in the game as long as the cover remained on it. Pitchers had it all their way, including trick deliveries.
Staying in the game long enough to have all those 20 win seasons and win 363, on this board doesn't seem to mean much.

[ol' aches and pains]

I will never understand that attitude, as long as I live.

Well, "the end justifies the means" isn't a new concept, and it's gained a lot of traction in recent years.

[Chadwick]

I dont know about Lefty Grove Walter Johnson Maddux Grover cleveland and whoever.

Then why bother commenting in a thread about Lefty Grove?