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How Great Was Lefty Grove?

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  • Roberts is a criminally underrated but I still gotta take Spahn over him quite comfortably, even with the "Brooklyn discount".
    My top 10 players:

    1. Babe Ruth
    2. Barry Bonds
    3. Ty Cobb
    4. Ted Williams
    5. Willie Mays
    6. Alex Rodriguez
    7. Hank Aaron
    8. Honus Wagner
    9. Lou Gehrig
    10. Mickey Mantle

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    • At his best Roberts was as good as or slightly better than Spahn, but Spahn was remarkably, consistently good for one of the longest periods in history. That's what makes him a top 9-10-11 pitcher. Roberts did a good job of "re-inventing" himself, but couldn't match Spahn's run (few could), so ends up around top 20-25 for most observers.

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      • Originally posted by BigRon View Post
        At his best Roberts was as good as or slightly better than Spahn, but Spahn was remarkably, consistently good for one of the longest periods in history. That's what makes him a top 9-10-11 pitcher. Roberts did a good job of "re-inventing" himself, but couldn't match Spahn's run (few could), so ends up around top 20-25 for most observers.
        That about covers it. I'm not going to press on with this tangent. I don't have a particularly strong opinion on the Grove controversy one way or another.

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        • Originally posted by BigRon View Post
          At his best Roberts was as good as or slightly better than Spahn, but Spahn was remarkably, consistently good for one of the longest periods in history. That's what makes him a top 9-10-11 pitcher. Roberts did a good job of "re-inventing" himself, but couldn't match Spahn's run (few could), so ends up around top 20-25 for most observers.
          Nothing new on this board with Spahn as the subject going on for years.
          All those years, that consistency not considered by some members here.

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          • Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post

            Nothing new on this board with Spahn as the subject going on for years.
            All those years, that consistency not considered by some members here.
            I know pitching wins aren't valued much anymore, but if you average 20 wins a year for 17 straight years, you're doing something right.
            19caa8a6ca2f5348eb3696b3b9e3a2cc.jpg
            They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.

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            • Originally posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
              I know pitching wins aren't valued much anymore, but if you average 20 wins a year for 17 straight years, you're doing something right.
              19caa8a6ca2f5348eb3696b3b9e3a2cc.jpg
              For sure, he did win 363 games 5th most in modern times, 382 complete games and 13 seasons 20 or more wins.
              To his team he was probably near the top in "value to his team" as most others were.
              That has to count some in evaluating him.
              Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 06-03-2021, 09:34 AM.

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              • There is always a bit of cause and effect confusion. Spahn won 363 games because he was great. He wasn't great because he won 363 games. A pitcher can be about as great with 150 fewer wins, but pitchers aren't hitting 360 wins without being great.
                1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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                • Originally posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
                  I know pitching wins aren't valued much anymore, but if you average 20 wins a year for 17 straight years, you're doing something right.
                  Was Spahn expected to make the Braves out of spring training before the war interrupted his career? I’ve read almost nothing about his career.
                  "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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                  • Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
                    There is always a bit of cause and effect confusion. Spahn won 363 games because he was great. He wasn't great because he won 363 games. A pitcher can be about as great with 150 fewer wins, but pitchers aren't hitting 360 wins without being great.
                    Who will debate that. Seems to me that his wins, complete games and longevity does not carry much weight with "some" on this board.
                    I also pointed out great or not aside, that was of great value to his team.

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                    • This turned into a Spahn thread

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                      • Originally posted by GoslinFan View Post
                        This turned into a Spahn thread
                        After all the years on this board, not unusual to get off the theme.

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                        • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

                          Was Spahn expected to make the Braves out of spring training before the war interrupted his career? I’ve read almost nothing about his career.
                          Spahn was told by his manager with the Braves (Casey Stengel) in1942 that he would never make it as a pitcher in the Major Leagues. Then he had to go fight WWII. He saw combat in Germany in 1945. He didn't win a game in the Majors until 1946, at age 25. Then he began "compiling" his 363 wins that many here are so anxious to dismiss.

                          Spahn ended his playing career with the Mets in 1965. His manager was Casey Stengel. Spahn used to say he knew Stengel before and after he was a genius.
                          Last edited by ol' aches and pains; 06-04-2021, 04:09 PM.
                          They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.

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                          • Top 10 Pitchers, All-Time
                            1. Roger Clemens
                            2. Walter Johnson
                            3. Greg Maddux
                            4. Cy Young
                            5. Tom Seaver
                            6. Randy Johnson
                            7. Lefty Grove
                            8. Satchel Paige
                            9. Pete Alexander
                            10. Pedro Martinez
                            "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                            "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                            "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                            "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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                            • I dont know about Lefty Grove Walter Johnson Maddux Grover cleveland and whoever.


                              But if I have to pick the GOAT that would be Clemens. He might be a cheater, but dude was a monster

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                              • I will never understand that attitude, as long as I live.
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