El Hombre vs. The Big Cat - Who's Cardinal's Career Was Better?

[Bothrops Atrox]

I have seen several incidents (not just today, but many times in local newspapers, etc.) where Albert is considered the greatest Cardinal 1st basemen ever. I am not completely sold that he even had a better 6-7 year start over The Big Cat. In fact, their numbers look very similar. I think Albert's league quality adjustments put him over the top, but am I the only one that thinks it is closer that it first appears? I would love to hear some thoughts.

[parlo]

I think Mize is hurt because he spent about 5-6 years with three different teams. For that era, I think it hurts him to not be identified more with one team.
I tend to think of him as a Giant (for whatever reason).


The other problem I always find with these so called All Time Teams, is that the more recent players get too much favoritism. Throughout the 1990s Nolan Ryan would constantly show up on Greatest Pitcher Of All Time list.
Today, I see Curt Schilling, Randy Johnson etc showing up on those lists, while Carl Hubbel will not be mentioned.

There is a lack of historical perspective!

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I think Mize is hurt because he spent about 5-6 years with three different teams. For that era, I think it hurts him to not be identified more with one team.
I tend to think of him as a Giant (for whatever reason).


The other problem I always find with these so called All Time Teams, is that the more recent players get too much favoritism. Throughout the 1990s Nolan Ryan would constantly show up on Greatest Pitcher Of All Time list.
Today, I see Curt Schilling, Randy Johnson etc showing up on those lists, while Carl Hubbel will not be mentioned.

There is a lack of historical perspective!

I doubt anywhere here at BBF would have Nolan Ryan, much less Curt Schilling on an all-time list. Perhaps they would show up on some specific team all-time list but certainly not historical all-time lists.

[philkid3]

The other problem I always find with these so called All Time Teams, is that the more recent players get too much favoritism. Throughout the 1990s Nolan Ryan would constantly show up on Greatest Pitcher Of All Time list.
Today, I see Curt Schilling, Randy Johnson etc showing up on those lists, while Carl Hubbel will not be mentioned.

Nolan is my favorite pitcher of all time, but I'll be the first to admit putting him anywhere near the top of an all-time greatest pitcher list was a mistake. If that's suddenly stopped (which it hasn't really, notice who got the most votes for the All-Century Team), that's a good thing, not a bad thing.

And Randy Johnson deserves to be near the top of all-time lists. He is incredibly inner-circle great.

Also, I have never seen Curt Schilling showing up very high on an all-time pitcher list. Most people consider him barely a Hall of Famer at best.

There is a lack of historical perspective!

Often there's a lack of modern perspective, too.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Johnny Mize played six seasons for the Cardinals. Pujols has seven seasons so far.

Per 162 games:

J.Mize: .336/.419/.600, 171 OPS+, 30 HR, 124 RBI, 104 R, 199 H, 41 doubles, 80 BB, 53 K
Pujols: .332/.420/.620, 167 OPS+, 42 HR, 128 RBI, 126 R, 200 H, 44 doubles, 88 BB, 67 K

Hmmm...

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Looking at Mize's page at Bsseball-reference.com it seems those three prime seasons he lost to WW II cost him some big career milestones.

[KCGHOST]

Their Cardinals is so similar that you could easily call it a push.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I think Mize is mostly forgotten because:

1) Mize played for the Cardinals from 1936-41. His great Cardinal career was perfectly squeezed between the great Cardinals teams of the early 1930s and the Great Cardinal teams of the early-mid 1940s. Had he played on those 1942-44 pennant winning Cardinal teams he could have been viewed as one half of a wondrous 1-2 punch with Musial.

2) WW II cost him career milestones, Absent WW II he could have had perhaps 480-500 HRs, 480-500 doubles, 2,500 H, 1,600 RBI, 1,400 R.

3) Mize had some great seasons with the NY Giants but the Giants of the 1940s didn't do much. The 1940s National League belonged to the Cardinals and Dodgers mostly.

4) Mize did win five World Series rings with the Yankees but he was well past his prime by then.

[Wade8813]

The other problem I always find with these so called All Time Teams, is that the more recent players get too much favoritism. Throughout the 1990s Nolan Ryan would constantly show up on Greatest Pitcher Of All Time list.
Today, I see Curt Schilling, Randy Johnson etc showing up on those lists, while Carl Hubbel will not be mentioned.

There is a lack of historical perspective!

There are plenty of people who overrate modern players, and there are plenty of people who overrate people from a long time ago. Modern players, we can witness first hand and be impressed by their accomplishments. Old timers are often viewed as being legends (we do that with other things - the first presidents, etc).

[RuthMayBond]

Today, I see Randy Johnson etc showing up on those lists, while Carl Hubbel will not be mentioned.

Are you saying Hubbell was better than Randy?

[parlo]

Are you saying Hubbell was better than Randy?

Dont put words in my mouth.
I dont want to get too far off topic, but I brought that example up to explain the Mize/Pujols debate. One is considered an all time Cardinal, the other doesnt get brought up.
I simply think that they are both deserving of inclusion in the discussion.

[bob]

After the first 6 years i would say pujols has a slight edge, although the 2 are very close on paper. But then pujols looks like he'll be playing for the cards quite a bit longer, where as mize spent most of his career in new york.

[Bothrops Atrox]

Dont put words in my mouth.
I dont want to get too far off topic, but I brought that example up to explain the Mize/Pujols debate. One is considered an all time Cardinal, the other doesnt get brought up.
I simply think that they are both deserving of inclusion in the discussion.

This was exactly my point. As great as Albert is, his greatness should not completely overshadow a guy who in fact was similar to him statisticaly. I do believe that Albert's defense (versatility too...3 different all-star births at 3 different positions in first 4 years) and league quality adjustments are the big tie-breaker, but Mize should not go unoticed.

For what it is worth, I also agree that Hubbell is extremely underatted not only by the average fan, but around here too. There is no way that he is better than Randy Johnson, but I do have him higher than Feller, Gibson, and Carlton.

[bob]

Albert is one of the top 3 most respected/talented hitters in the game right now along with manny and Arod. Mize from what i gather was never spoken of in quite the same light as the other stars of his time (Williams, Dimaggio, Musial, Foxx etc). Doesnt mean he wasn't one of the best of his time, but he was overshadowed by some of the best of ALL time.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Why did Branch Rickey trade Mize at age 28? I know Rickey was famous for trading players before they decline but through age 28 there was no evidence that Mize was going to decline. Or was there?