Best Pitcher Peak

[AstrosFan]

What pitcher had the best peak? I think this is a legitimately difficult question to answer, because we are comparing the high innings guys of the past to the lower innings guys of the present. Walter Johnson? Koufax? Pedro? Maddux?

The other question is, what is a peak? Is it three years? Four? Five? And does a peak have to be consecutive years?

When making your choice, explain to us your definition of a peak, then give us your choice, and explain why you made that pick.

[parlo]

I think that both 3 year peaks and 5 year peaks are legitimate in their own ways. But three year peaks are going to create a much bigger list.
The top five year peaks will consist of mostly HOFers.
The five year peak should be more or less consecutive. I think one off year due to injury, or two years because military service should be taken into account. But a five year peak should not take place over ten years. Then it is no longer a peak.
With that being said, I will go with Koufax.
His post season exploits play a factor in this. 1963 &1965
Along with the number of innings pitched each season.

[Frank]

Yeah it's just to bad *Sandy Koufax*peak just happen to be his last 4-seasons, just wonder what he could have done if he was able to pitch 5-more years...

__*S.Koufax 1963-1966*__

Won-97 Lost-27 W%-.782
SO-1,228
BB-259
CG-89
SHO-31
IP-1,192.2
Hits-825
MVP-1
CY-3
No-Hitters-3{1 was a perfect game}
4-ERA Titles
3-SO Titles
Lead NL League in Wins-3
Lead NL League in SHO-3
*3-pitcher's triple crowns* {wins-so-era}

**A Great 4-year run..................

[Bill Burgess]

Most Impressive Pitcher's Peaks:

1. Pedro Martinez, 1997-2003,-------215 ERA+

2. Walter Johnson, 1910-1914,-------204 ERA+

3. Roger Clemens, 1986-1992,--------164 ERA+

4. Sandy Koufax, 1961-1966,---------161 ERA+

5. Ed Walsh, 1907-1912,-------------160 ERA+

6. Christy Mathewson, 1903-1909,----155 ERA+

7. Grover Alexander, 1911-1917,-----150 ERA+

8. Rube Waddell, 1902-1908,---------145 ERA+
----------------------------------------------------------------
Pedro Martinez (1997-2000; 4 years - 226 1/3 innings): 226

Greg Maddux (1992-1995; 4 years - 236 2/3 innings): 211

Mordecai Brown (1906-1909; 4 years - 291 1/3): 196

Bob Gibson (1968-1970; 3 years - 304 2/3 innings): 185

**Roger Clemens (1990-1992; 3 years - 248 2/3 innings): 183

**Roger Clemens (1996-1998; 3 years - 247 innings): 182

Randy Johnson (1999-2002; 4 years - 257 1/3): 182

Tom Seaver (1969-1971; 3 years - 283 1/3 innings) 167

Juan Marichal (1964-1966; 3 years - 290 1/3 innings): 160

Amos Rusie (1893-1896; 4 years - 410 1/3): 155

Bob Feller (1939-1941; 3 years - 320): 146

Warren Spahn (1951-1953; 3 years - 288 2/3): 142

[philkid3]

Either Pedro or Big Train with a nod to Koufax.

I go Pedro, largely due bigger, better baseball players. On steroids.

[parlo]

Either Pedro or Big Train with a nod to Koufax.

I go Pedro, largely due bigger, better baseball players. On steroids.

Thats a good point! Koufax has the innings, Pedro faced the Juicers!

[Frank]

From 63-66 Koufax faced some good NL-players

__Against Koufax 63-66__
H.Aaron--AB-42 HITS-9 AVG-.214 SO-4
W.Mays--AB-54 HITS-14 AVG-.259 SO-10
R.Clemente--AB-60 H-15 AVG-.250 SO-11
P.Rose--AB-57 H-10 AVG-.175 SO-10
E.Banks--AB-46 H-4 AVG-.087 SO-10
F.Robinson--AB-43 H-4 AVG-.093 SO-8
W.McCovey--AB-36 H-4 AVG-.111 SO-12
O.Cepeda--AB-42 H-11 AVG-.262 SO-12
B.Williams--AB-45 H-12 AVG-.267 SO-10
R.Santo--AB-45 H-11 AVG-.244 SO-10
K.Boyer--AB-62 H-14 AVG-.226 SO-9
D.Groat--AB-73 H-12 AVG-.164 SO-8

[Old Sweater]

1. Pedro Martinez, 1997-2003,-------215 ERA+

2. Walter Johnson, 1910-1914,-------204 ERA+

3. Roger Clemens, 1986-1992,--------164 ERA+

4. Sandy Koufax, 1961-1966,---------161 ERA+

5. Ed Walsh, 1907-1912,-------------160 ERA+

6. Christy Mathewson, 1903-1909,----155 ERA+

7. Grover Alexander, 1911-1917,-----150 ERA+

8. Rube Waddell, 1902-1908,---------145 ERA+

Which of these pitchers had the best LQ adjustment?

[Bill Burgess]

Which of these pitchers had the best LQ adjustment?

Darned if I know. I didn't even know how to calculate the ERA+ figures. 538280 had to calculate them for me.

[BoSox Rule]

538280 had to calculate them for me.

Oh, the lies

[DoubleX]

Most Impressive Pitcher's Peaks:

1. Pedro Martinez, 1997-2003,-------215 ERA+

My problem with this period is that in the last three seasons, Pedro did not once pass 200 innings in a year. In the last 5 seasons of that period, Pedro's highest inning total was 217. Eating up innings is the most valuable thing an ace pitcher can do, IMO, and Pedro just wasn't the workhorse that some of the other names in this coversation were. Even in his own era, Pedro just wasn't much of a workhorse outside of '97-'98. Only once has he finished in the top 5 in IP.

Don't get me wrong, Pedro in the late 90s was truly remarkable, but his inability to be the kind of workhorse you expect from the all time great pitchers, hurts his value a little, IMO, when putting him in these type of conversations.

EDIT: I had some time to kill, so I looked into how Pedro's IP total compared to his peers from the '97-'03 period. I very well could have forgotten some pitchers, but right now, Pedro looks to rank 12th in total innings during that period:

1) Greg Maddux - 1606
2) Randy Johnson - 1603
3) Curt Schilling - 1601 - This one surprised me given his injury history
4) Tom Glavine - 1574
5) Mike Mussina - 1534
6) Roger Clemens - 1505
7) Mike Hampton - 1464
8) Jamie Moyer - 1462
9) Brad Radke - 1458
10) Livan Hernandez - 1449
11) David Wells - 1416
12) Pedro Martinez - 1411
13) Andy Pettitte - 1400
14) Bartolo Colon - 1390
15) Hideo Nomo - 1371
16) Steve Trachsel - 1370
17) Kevin Brown - 1369
18) Al Leiter - 1340
19) Rick Helling - 1332
20) Woody Williams - 1327
21) Aaron Sele - 1305

[digglahhh]

Yeah it's just to bad *Sandy Koufax*peak just happen to be his last 4-seasons, just wonder what he could have done if he was able to pitch 5-more years...

Not trying to pick on you, Frank, and maybe you didn't even mean this the way it reads, but...

Why do people always say this? There is no, "what if," there's no "imagine five more years." Sandy asked the team doctor to tell him the last possible point before Koufax would inflict permanent, life-altering damage to his arm. Koufax was done when he was done, spent, no more, nada! The brilliant left arm threw every pitch in possibly could before it would cease to be an arm.

This isn't like Ted Williams not going to war, or Josh Gibson being allowed to play in the Majors - those are what-ifs.

Koufax is an "is."

Imagine if Sandy Koufax pitched five more years is no more of a what-if than me saying, imagine if Kobe Bryant was 7'2"...


Honorable mention for Randy Johnson '98-'01, by the way.

[EdTarbusz]

Yeah it's just to bad *Sandy Koufax*peak just happen to be his last 4-seasons, just wonder what he could have done if he was able to pitch 5-more years...

..................

Koufax's peak may have started earlier if he wasn't a bonus baby and been able to learn how to pitch in the Minor Leagues. But then again, if he wasn't a bonus baby nad had to start in the Minors, he probably would have never been a professional baseball player and might have played in the NBA instead.

[DoubleX]

Not trying to pick on you, Frank, and maybe you didn't even mean this the way it reads, but...

Why do people always say this? There is no, "what if," there's no "imagine five more years." Sandy asked the team doctor to tell him the last possible point before Koufax would inflict permanent, life-altering damage to his arm. Koufax was done when he was done, spent, no more, nada! The brilliant left arm threw every pitch in possibly could before it would cease to be an arm.

This isn't like Ted Williams not going to war, or Josh Gibson being allowed to play in the Majors - those are what-ifs.

Koufax is an "is."

Imagine if Sandy Koufax pitched five more years is no more of a what-if than me saying, imagine if Kobe Bryant was 7'2"...


Honorable mention for Randy Johnson '98-'01, by the way.

I think it's fair to speculate about Koufax's career in light of the fact that his arm and career may have really benefitted from advances in medicine and surgery that have since been developed. It seems like a fair adjustment to make. Or to ask a question of how would someone like Pedro Martinez have pitched during Koufax's time? It's doubtful Pedro's arm could have withstood the workload Koufax pitched, given that Pedro had problems withstanding his much more modest workload, and then was able to have surgery to prolong his career that was not available to Koufax. So is it fair to reward Pedro because he was fortunate to come around at a time when teams knew not to burn his arm out earlier, like Koufax, and had the benefit of surgery to keep his career going? Or vice versa, is it fair to punish Koufax for not being fortunate enough to come around at such a time? I think these kind of questions are very relevant here.

There's really no way to reconcile any of this, but I believe in subjective adjustments to take into account these kind of things.

[Bill Burgess]

Oh, the lies

Ha ha ha!! Good one, Bobby. Always feel good seeing you around, old friend.

Bill