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Best Secondbasemen of All Time

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  • Best Secondbasemen of All Time

    --I am hoping to push for a little more thought put into these and a broader scope than our previous best position player polls. I'll be asking for top 20 rather than top 10. This will probably make for more interesting discussion as we're mined the ground pretty heavy on the very top guys. Discussion will be encouraged - at least to the point of comments along side your rankings (not required).
    --The actual ranking will be for MLB players only. We've had some issues in the past where some rank Negro leguers highly and others exclude them entirely. That makes it difficult to slot with with any kind of fairness. What I'm asking for here is an addendum to your ballot which catergorizes them in one of the following ways; 1) probably best ever at their position, 2) probably top 5 at their position, 3) probably top 10 at their position, 4) probably top 20 at their position. The final ranking will slot them accordingly. I'll ask for the same type addendum for non-US players for those who wish to comment on them.
    --I'll also ask you to list the Hall of Famers outside your top 20 in a separate addendum. Not that it won't be easy to identify them without it, but just to show; a) you considered all the likley candidates and b) to illustrate where mistakes have been made and highlight the players who do make the top 20 and are not in the Hall of Fame.

  • #2
    1) Joe Morgan - minority position I know, lets not let it domonate discussion
    2) Rogers Hornsby - likely winner and I'm okay with that - he was awesome
    3) Eddie Collins - I'm downgraded him some recently, closer Lajoie than 1/2
    4) Nap Lajoie - probably would have been even greater with live ball
    5) Jackie Robinson - if only his career started before age 28....
    6) Charley Gehringer - the complete package
    7) Rod Carew - viewing his whole career, not just 2B half
    8) Ryne Sandberg - shouldn't have taken the year off (or not come back)
    9) Frankie Frisch - great player with player-manager bonus
    10) Craig Biggio - like Carew viewing the whole package
    11) Roberto Alomar - faded very quickly or would be a few notches higher
    12) Ross Barnes - yeah he had a short career in a weak league, but he was Hornsby with a better glove (well hand) at his peak
    13) Bobby Grich - awesome glove (before back injury) and terrific hitter
    14) Joe Gordon - very similar to Grich
    15) Jeff Kent - terrific, under appreciated hitter
    16) Lou Whitaker - very good all around player for a long time
    17) Billy Herman - very god contact hitter and defender
    18) Larry Doyle - best player in a weak NL 1910s field
    19) Bid McPhee - maybe best defense ever & better hitter than competition (Maz)
    20) Nellie Fox -one of best AL players of the 50s

    --Secondbase was a weak spot for Negro Leaguers (and Japanese players as far as I know), but Frank Grant is maybe a top 20 candidate.

    --Hall of Famers outside the top 20; Johnny Evers, Red Schoendienst, Tony Lazzeri and Bill Mazeroski.

    Comment


    • #3
      2B

      Pre-1900: Ross Barnes, Jack Burdock, Fred Pfeffer, Cupid Childs, Bid McPhee, Jimmy Williams, Fred Dunlap, Hardy Richardson, Sol White, Frank Grant, Bud Fowler, Gene DeMontreville.

      Larry Doyle, Johnny Evers, Bobby Lowe, Nap Lajoie, Eddie Collins, Rogers Hornsby, George Cutshaw, Tony Lazzeri, Charlie Gehringer, Frankie Frisch, Joe Gordon, Bobby Doerr, Jackie Robinson, Nellie Fox, Bill Mazeroski, Red Schoendiest, Rod Carew, Joe Morgan, Ryne Sandberg, Robbie Alomar, Bobby Grich, Craig Biggio, Jeff Kent, Alfonso Soriano;
      Negro Leagues: Elwood "Bingo" DeMoss
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Bill James' Top 2B: 1. Joe Morgan 2. Eddie Collins 3. Rogers Hornsby 4. Jackie Robinson 5. Craig Biggio 6. Nap Lajoie 7. Ryne Sandberg 8. Charlie Gehringer 9. Rod Carew 10. Roberto Alomar 11. Frankie Frisch 12. Bobby Grich 13. Lou Whitaker 14. Billy Herman 15. Nellie Fox 16. Joe Gordon 18. Bobby Doerr 19. Tony Lazzeri 25. Johnny Evers 28. Red Schoendienst 29. Bill Mazeroski 30. Bid McPhee 48. Jeff Kent 56. Bobby Lowe
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      As an added reference resource, here are our two former 2Base comparison threads.

      1st Round of Greatest Position Players - November 14, 2004 - December 10, 2004, by Leecemark

      2nd Round of Greatest Position Players - October 13, 2005 - December 27, 2005, conducted by 53820

      3rd Round of Greatest Position Players - April 14, 2007 - June 12, 2007 - conducted by Bill Burgess
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      My slate of candidates for Top 20 2B.

      1. Eddie Collins - 1907-28 - Overall excellence/longevity takes the cake.

      2. Rogers Hornsby - 1915-37 - Roger's bat rules. Effective greatness over after '29. 14 effective yrs. of productivity.

      3. Nap Lajoie - 1896-1916 - Great bat challenges top 2.

      4. Charlie Gehringer - 1926-42 - In mid-30's, he challenged Gehrig as best player in MLs. All time glove/stern bat, potent combo. Even led in SB once.

      5. Jackie Robinson - 1947-56 - Another competitive firebrand, nicer bat. Exciting baserunner/stealer. Benefits from serious historical significance. Arrived in ML at 27, denied his early yrs. Rookie of yr. ('47), MVP ('49), 6 all star teams, lead league in BA once, on-base once, Total BB gives him 2 SB and 3 TPR titles.

      6. Joe Morgan - 1963-84 - All-Around excellence made his teams win much more than otherwise.

      7. Ryne Sandberg - 1981-97 - Smooth blend of glove/ bat. Retiring after '94, cost him '95. Dumb screw-up. Led league in Runs 3 times, triples once and HRs once (40).

      8. Frankie Frisch - 1919-37 - Competitive firebrand/holler guy, nice glove/bat combo. Led league in Runs once, hits once, and SB 3 times. Total BB gives him 2 FR titles and 1 TPR title.

      9. Rod Carew - 1967-85 - Great bingles slapper, moved to 1st mid-career. 7 BA titles, 15 all star teams. Led league in Runs once, hits 3 times, triples twice, on-base 4 times, and Total BB gives him 3 TPR titles.

      10. Craig Biggio - 1988-present - Fine bat, runs great. 400 SB. Led L. twice in R, doubles 3 times; once in SB. 7 All-Stars, 4 GG,
      ; 2 Top 10 BA, 4 Top 10 onbase, 9 Top 10 Runs, 6 Top 10 Hits, 5 Top 10 Walks, 5 Top 10 SB.

      11. Bobby Grich - 1970-86 - 4 time GG was a better fielder than a hitter. 6 All star teams. Led league once in HRs, SLG, OPS+. Total BB gives him 3 TPR titles. .266 career BA., .424 career SLG.

      12. Joe Gordon - 1938-43, '46-50 - Acrobatic Yankee Leather Wizard reigns. Glove Magic made him amazing play-maker. 8 all star teams, led league in FR once, high totals 3 other yrs. A Brooksie/Cox with his small glove. War interrupted flow of career.

      13. Roberto Alomar - 1988-present - Nice glove/bat combo. 12 all star teams. 1999 his career offensive yr. 2 Win Share titles. Hasn't spit since.

      14. Jeff Kent - 1992-present - His bat won him a MVP in 2000. 3 All Star teams. Wouldn't defer to Barry in dugout/clubhouse, cost him his Giants' uniform.

      15. Nellie Fox - 1949-65 - One of greatest bingle slappers, AND great glove. Great DP combo with Aparicio. Led league in hits 4 times, triples once, Win Shares once, 12 All Star teams. Achieved 189 hits/season 8 times. Struck out 216 times out of 9232 ABs = every 42.7 ABs. Puts him in with Joe Sewell, Lloyd Waner class of sharp eye/plate discipline. .288 career BA.

      16. Red Schoendienst - 1945-63 - Great glove. Led league in hits, doubles, SB once. 10 all star teams.

      17. Johnny Evers - 1902-17 - Hysterical holler guy, great glove, walked well. Fire was his calling card. Led league once in on-base.

      slotted but unranked: Elwood "Bingo" DeMoss - 1910-30. Unquestionably finest 2Bman Negro L. ever produced. Consumate player, excelling is all phases of the game. His style afield served as model for those who later played 2nd. Besides his impeccable defense, was line drive hitter, always above .300.

      18. John "Bid" McPhee - 1882-1899 - Defined position defensively in 1800's. (Half his career, played gloveless?), Led league once in triples, HRs. Total BB gives him 2 TPR titles. Lots of Runs Scored, few RBIs. .277 career BA.

      19. Bill Mazeroski - 1956-72 - GGs got him in the Hall. And that '60 WS homer. 7 All star teams. .260 career BA. Deluxe leather, terrible hitter.

      20. Ross Barnes - 1871 - 1881 - 346 g at 2B/141 g at SS. Brief career yet great bat. Led L. 3 times in BA, onbase, slugging, OPS+, doubles, EBHs. Led L. 4 times in Runs, Hits, Total Bases. Brievity of career leaves something to be desired, but what a hitter! His highest number of games played in season: 78, 69, 66, 60 does give concern.
      ----------------------------------------
      Hall of Famers unranked: Bobby Doerr, Billy Herman, Tony Lazzeri
      Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-11-2008, 03:16 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        This is a longer list because of research I was doing for the suburbs of Cooperstown project. Please note I was working off of 5 different lists and removing NeL guys and adding in HOFers and some active players, so it's possible I missed someone when scanning through:

        1. Rogers Hornsby
        2. Eddie Collins
        3. Joe Morgan
        4. Nap Lajoie
        5. Ryne Sandberg
        6. Jackie Robinson (I actually had him above Morgan, but that was including Negro League Play)
        7. Charlie Gehringer
        8. Craig Biggio
        9. Ross Barnes
        10. Frankie Frisch
        11. Joe Gordon
        12. Rod Carew
        13. Bobby Grich
        14. Jeff Kent
        15. Roberto Alomar
        16. Nellie Fox
        17. Bid McFee
        18. Lou Whitaker
        19. Tony Lazzeri
        20. Bobby Doerr
        21. Cupid Childs
        22. Hardy Richardson
        23. Larry Doyle
        24. Bill Mazeroski
        **********Personal cutoff for the HOF****************
        25. Billy Herman
        26. Willie Randolph
        27. Buddy Myers
        28. George Grantham
        29. Red Schoendienst
        30. Dick McAuliffe
        31. Luis Castillo
        32. Chuck Knoblauch
        33. Jim Gilliam
        34. Bobby Avila
        35. Steve Sax
        36. Gill McDonald
        37. Tony Phillips
        38. Bobby Lowe
        39. Frank White
        40. Jimmy Williams
        41. Bobby Richardson
        42. Alfonso Soriano
        43. Johnny Evers
        44. Johnny Temple
        45. Fred Dunlap
        46. Manny Trillo
        47. Ray Durham
        48. Mark Grudzielanek
        49. Fred Pfeffer
        50. Dave Lopes
        51. Glen Hubbard
        52. Jeff Blum
        Last edited by jjpm74; 03-11-2008, 04:34 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
          Marty Marion
          Wasn't Marty Marion a Shortstop?

          Comment


          • #6
            Pre-1900: Ross Barnes, Jack Burdock, Fred Pfeffer, Cupid Childs, Bid McPhee, Jimmy Williams, Fred Dunlap, Hardy Richardson, Sol White, Frank Grant, Bud Fowler, Gene DeMontreville.

            Bill,

            Shouldn't either Sol White or Frank Grant be switched to SS since they played on the same team together? Good List!
            "He's tougher than a railroad sandwich."
            "You'se Got The Eye Of An Eagle."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
              Wasn't Marty Marion a Shortstop?
              OOPS!! How embarrassing. Please 'scuse me so I can slink off and rinse off my humiliation. Mortifying.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TonyK View Post
                Pre-1900: Ross Barnes, Jack Burdock, Fred Pfeffer, Cupid Childs, Bid McPhee, Jimmy Williams, Fred Dunlap, Hardy Richardson, Sol White, Frank Grant, Bud Fowler, Gene DeMontreville.

                Bill,

                Shouldn't either Sol White or Frank Grant be switched to SS since they played on the same team together? Good List!
                I'll be blunt. Duh? I haven't the slightest clue. Hardly even remember where I first got the list from. Was probably reading some obscure stuff and rapidly scribbling down my notes, without doing follow-up research or reading up on these guys.

                Comment


                • #9
                  1. Rogers Hornsby
                  2. Napoleon Lajoie
                  3. Eddie Collins
                  4. Charlie Gehringer
                  5. Rod Carew
                  6. Ross Barnes
                  7. Joe Morgan
                  8. Frankie Frisch
                  9. Roberto Alomar
                  10. Ryne Sandberg

                  11. Craig Biggio
                  12. Billy Herman
                  13. Jackie Robinson
                  14. Nellie Fox
                  15. Bobby Doerr
                  16. Jeff Kent
                  17. Larry Doyle
                  18. Joe Gordon
                  19. Tony Lazzeri
                  20. Hardy Richardson

                  21. Red Schoendienst
                  22. Cupid Childs
                  23. Del Pratt
                  24. Alfonso Soriano
                  25. Bid McPhee
                  26. Fred Dunlap
                  27. Lou Whitaker
                  28. Buddy Myer
                  29. Julio Franco
                  30. Chuck Knoblauch

                  31. Danny Murphy
                  32. Willie Randolph
                  33. Jimmy Williams
                  34. Bobby Grich
                  35. Bret Boone

                  Late 30s
                  Johnny Evers

                  40s
                  Bill Mazeroski

                  Too far off the scale
                  Bucky Harris

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
                    I'll be blunt. Duh? I haven't the slightest clue. Hardly even remember where I first got the list from. Was probably reading some obscure stuff and rapidly scribbling down my notes, without doing follow-up research or reading up on these guys.
                    From boxscores I have seen, Frank Grant was the SS on the Cuban Giants after being blackballed from the minor leagues. When Sol White joined the club Sol played 2B for a few years. As Grant got older it looks like they switched positions and White moved over to SS. I have read a few sources that think Grant was always a 2B and that was not the case.

                    I see you used to work at the GPO. I used to work at the SPA in Boston around the same time. I must have sent mail to you on our LSM's.
                    "He's tougher than a railroad sandwich."
                    "You'se Got The Eye Of An Eagle."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Do you know of any negative statistics on Joe Gordon in the 1942 season....other than leading in strikeouts? I have to do a report on him and specifically have to list two other negative stats and can't come up with anything on this guy.
                      Thanks

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        1. Rogers Hornsby
                        2. Eddie Collins
                        3. Joe Morgan
                        4. Jackie Robinson
                        5. Nap Lajoie
                        6. Rod Carew
                        7. Ryne Sandberg
                        8. Craig Biggio
                        9. Charlie Gehringer
                        10. Frankie Frisch
                        11. Robbie Alomar
                        12. Jeff Kent
                        13. Johnny Evers
                        14. Nellie Fox
                        15. Lou Whitaker
                        16. Bid McPhee
                        17. Frank White
                        18. Joe Gordon
                        19. Billy Herman
                        20. Bobby Grich

                        Bingo DeMoss would probably be on somewhere between 10 and 20.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          1 Rogers Hornsby-Grade A stick, grade A jerk
                          2 Eddie Collins-over Morgan by a hair
                          3 Joe Morgan-loses out to Collins with his glove
                          4 Nap Lajoie-a closer 4th than mahy would realize
                          5 Charlie Gehringer-Mr. "Do Everything Well"
                          6 Craig Biggio-hanging on at the end, don't forget how good he truly was
                          7 Rod Carew-including the 1B years
                          8 Roberto Alomar-shorter career version of Biggio
                          9 JEFF KENT-no glove to speak of, but best 2B power bat ever
                          10 Jackie Robinson-career was just too short
                          11 Bobby Grich-underrated/overrated...depends on who you ask
                          12 Ryne Sandberg-never a big Ryno fan...saw too many of his Wrigley singles keeping him a "great" fielder
                          13 Frankie Frisch-one word....fiesty
                          14 Cupid Childs-1800s OB machine
                          15 Bid McPhee-Mazeroski with half a bat and some wheels
                          16 Larry Doyle-deadball slugger...short career
                          17 Nellie Fox-should have been deadballer
                          18 Bobby Doerr-product of his era, but still very good
                          19 Billy Herman-solid but unspectacular
                          20 Lou Whitaker-what did Alan and Lou do to the BBWA guys anyway?

                          NeLers- possible Sol White, Frank Grant and Bingo DeMoss at the back end of the top 20
                          Nippon-none that I'm aware of

                          HOFers not making the cut- Schoendienst, Evers, Mazeroski, Lazzerri, Huggins(manager?)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by vicmar411 View Post
                            Do you know of any negative statistics on Joe Gordon in the 1942 season....other than leading in strikeouts? I have to do a report on him and specifically have to list two other negative stats and can't come up with anything on this guy.
                            Thanks
                            He led his league in grounding into DPs with 22.

                            Here is his Baseball-Reference Page,---http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gordojo01.shtml

                            All members should have BB Reference as a icon on their desktop, for rapid reference. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players.shtml

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by vicmar411 View Post
                              Do you know of any negative statistics on Joe Gordon in the 1942 season....other than leading in strikeouts? I have to do a report on him and specifically have to list two other negative stats and can't come up with anything on this guy.
                              Thanks
                              Led his league in batter strikeouts
                              Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                              Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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