Greg Maddux Thread

[Brian McKenna]

i don't usually participate in these discussions but i am interested to hear some intelligent discussion of this topic as i have high regard for this man but too many look at me funny when i say how high on the list of the great pitchers of history i place him - my arguments usually rest on the narrative but i have seen others, such as sabrmatt i believe, list him as number one or two all-time (hope i stated that correctly) based on the numbers.

----------Greg Maddux, Braves' P, Road, 1993-2003------------------------1993-95---BB Reference

[538280]

I have him #1 all time among pitchers, mostly based on league quality adjustments, IP context, and some very good DIPS marks.

Maddux and Clemens, well, I've always felt Maddux was a much better player in his peak. Clemens has a disjointed, all over the place peak. He seemed never to be able to string together 7 or 8 great seasons in a row. Maddux was great year in year out, Clemens has a few off years.

Plus, Maddux was outstanding in the shortened years of 1994-1995. I feel he deserves full credit to make up for time lost to the strike.

Clemens, if he does come back and has another great year this year, may just barely pass Maddux and Johnson on my list, but right now Greg is #1 for me.

[Blackout]

1-Walter Johnson
2-Roger Clemens
3-Pedro Martinez
4-Satchel Paige
5-Christy Mathewson
6-Cy Young
7-Pete Alexander
8-Lefty Grove
9-Randy Johnson
10-Greg Maddox

[baseballPAP]

I now have Maddux in at #3 among RH starters, and #4 overall. That is up from #8 a couple months ago, mostly due to looking at some of the guys in between closer. I still have him trailing Walter Johnson and Clemens, but the gap is small for Clemens, and one great "I'm not done yet" season from catching the Train.

[DoubleX]

I have Maddux 4th all-time, toying with moving him up to 3rd. My top 5 are:

1a) Roger Clemens
1b) Walter Johnson
3) Lefty Grove
4) Greg Maddux
5) Pete Alexander

[leecemark]

--I see Maddux as just this much behind Clemens, who I regard as the best pitcher of all time. I think Maddux has benefited from his teams a little more than The Rocket and not aged quite as well. It wouldn't be unreasonable to put him at #2, given his close comparison to Clemens, but in the interest of giving fair treatment to the greats of all eras (and because the others have a claim to the top spot I don't see for Maddux) he is actually #5 in my rankings.
1) Clemens
2) Johnson (Walter)
3) Grove
4) Young
5) Maddux
6) Alexander
7) Seaver
8) Spahn
9) Paige (in fairness he could be higher - or lower)
10) Mathewson

[Brian McKenna]

what if the aging process was chemically manipulated by clemens?

were maddux's teams that much better than clemen's offensively - maddux has a long history of taking his best offensive catcher out of the lineup and working with the lesser offensive talent - at times this has been greatly to his disadvantage as far as run support

it is interesting to note that nearly everyone else listed is a power pitcher

really, really hard to see him being listed outside the top-5 -- much less number 10

[The Dude]

1.Pete Alexander*
2.Lefty Grove*
3.Greg Maddux
4.Walter Johnson*
5.Randy Johnson
6.Roger Clemens

If you asked me who the most dominant pitcher in history is, it wouldn't be Greg Maddux.

I would agree with 538280 in saying that the main reason I rank Maddux ahead of Clemens is that Maddux was consistently great from 1988-2002. Even without being a "strikeout" pitcher, Maddux is 12th all time in SO-BB ratio because of his master control. And I know that Defense for a pitcher isn't the most important, but when you're as great as Greg Maddux is, it has to count for something. Again, if you ask me who the most dominant is between Johnson, Clemens, and Maddux, it's obviously not Maddux. If you ask me who the best of them was, it would be Maddux. Now, if Maddux has another bad year and Johnson has another very good year, that could easily change. And if Clemens comes back, who knows what could happen.

[leecemark]

--If there was some evidence that Clemens used steroids then he would drop in my rankings. I'm not aware of any good evidence or even anything more than idle speculation to that effect though.

[Appling]

it is interesting to note that nearly everyone else listed is a power pitcher

Yes, it is hard to rank a pitcher in the top ten ever, when he is not a big strikeout pitcher. But Maddux gets results -- he keeps the score down and he wins games. I would place him somewhere between #5 and #8 on my all-time ranking of pitchers -- behind Clemens but ahead of Randy Johnson.

[digglahhh]

Unlike many others here, I don't have an actual list.

But I would have to assume he'd land somewhere around #5.

[Brian McKenna]

maddux actually is 13th all-time in strikeouts but not on the per game leader board

[RuthMayBond]

I've got Maddux pegged as sixth or seventh, as of the start of this season.

[ElHalo]

I put Maddux in my top 20 only grudgingly, and he'll never see the inside of my top 15.

[baseballPAP]

EH, why is it you only show your head when you have something to say that makes you sound a little bit off? I'm trying not to be rude and use the other words that come to mind...but come on? Barely in the top 20? Its because he pitched in those boring 80's isn't it?