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Best season of the following - 2nd base edition

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  • Blackout
    replied
    oh by the way, the most runs created per game in hornsbys career?? 1925

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  • Blackout
    replied
    i do know how it works

    100 x obp/league obp and slugging/league slugging


    but regardless his OPS+ was higher am I wrong?

    getting on base .489 is better than .450 something
    Last edited by Blackout; 03-18-2008, 01:19 PM.

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  • Otis Nixon's Bodyguard
    replied
    Originally posted by blackout805 View Post
    i chose 25 over 22 because the OBP and slugging are both higher and same with OPS+
    Do you understand how OPS+ is calculated? The only two inputs that are specific to the player's performance are OBP and SLG%, which are then adjusted according to league and park conditions. Thus, if Hornsby's OBP and SLG% were higher in '22 than in '25, but his OPS+ was about the same in both years, what we can conclude is that he played at approximately the same level both years, but the rest of the league was better in '25. The purpose of OPS+ is to normalize OPS (which equals OBP + SLG%) because the conditions under which it is obtained aren't always equal. If a player's OPS+ totals from two different seasons are the same, his OBP and SLG% totals are essentially irrelevent, except to help us compare the two sets of conditions he played in.

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  • Blackout
    replied
    i chose 25 over 22 because the OBP and slugging are both higher and same with OPS+

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  • Otis Nixon's Bodyguard
    replied
    Originally posted by blackout805 View Post
    yeah but his overall OPS was larger

    the OPS+ was 12 points smaller but when your OPS+ is over 200 the different isn't that much
    That's similar to the logic I used to say that he was better in '22 than in '25, although I also considered the fact that he played more games in '22.

    Upon further investigation, I found out that Hornsby led the league in the following categories in 1922:

    Batting average
    Home runs
    RBI
    Runs
    Hits
    Doubles
    Total bases
    On base %
    Slugging %
    OPS
    OPS+

    He also led the league in just about every other sabermetric statistic that holds no significance to most people outside this message board.

    I'd be hard pressed to come up with another player who dominated his league offensively to that degree. Ruth and Williams are the only two who come to mind.
    Last edited by Otis Nixon's Bodyguard; 03-17-2008, 07:37 PM.

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  • Murderers Row
    replied
    Originally posted by blackout805 View Post
    yeah but his overall OPS was larger

    the OPS+ was 12 points smaller but when your OPS+ is over 200 the different isn't that much
    Of course it is. Thats like saying two people are 6 feet tall. One in 6' and the other is 6'9 but nine inches isn't a big deal because they are both over 6' and therefore they are both tall.

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  • AstrosFan
    replied
    Originally posted by blackout805 View Post
    yeah but his overall OPS was larger

    the OPS+ was 12 points smaller but when your OPS+ is over 200 the different isn't that much
    Sigh. I don't suppose I would have any hope of convincing you that it's what you do relative to the league that matters, not the raw numbers?

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  • AstrosFan
    replied
    I have Hornsby in 1924 as statistically the best offensive season, but again, he may have been better defensively in '22, so it's a tough call as to which season was better. Morgan is what I like to call the league quality candidate. The numbers clearly support Hornsby, even if you give Morgan a solid edge in defense, but it may be that Morgan's leagues were that much stronger that he can pull ahead of Hornsby. The league quality argument just doesn't work for any other candidate, and unless you're giving a massive defensive and baserunning edge to Lajoie and Collins, you can't really argue for them. The logical choice is to go with Hornsby until we know more about the league quality issue.
    Last edited by AstrosFan; 03-17-2008, 06:19 PM.

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  • Blackout
    replied
    Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
    But relative to the league, the rate numbers were better in 1924, and he had more PA.
    yeah but his overall OPS was larger

    the OPS+ was 12 points smaller but when your OPS+ is over 200 the different isn't that much

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  • Murderers Row
    replied
    Without accounting for SB, Hornby was worth 8.9 wins while Morgan was worth 6.3. I'm going to assume Morgan was worth around 7.5 wins with the SB and Hornsby 8.5-.86

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  • Murderers Row
    replied
    To convert wins, Palmers method was:
    "Divide adjusted batting runs by runs per win. In this case, Runs per win equals 10 times the square root of (runs per inning+player adjusted batting runs/games/9)"

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  • brett
    replied
    Originally posted by Murderers Row View Post
    ABR is:

    Batting Runs-(batters' park factor-1)*RPA*PA/PF)
    RPA is the number of runs per plate appearance in the league, PA is the plate appearance and the PF is park factor.
    So what this tells me is that they use the league run environment to set a baseline. Hornsby produced x number of runs above his league average and Morgan produced y number above his.

    So once again to convert runs to wins or games you have to divide them by the league run environment.

    Morgan produced 60 some runs above average for HIS league and park, and Hornsby Produced 90s some runs above average for HIS league and park, but the 60 runs produced by Morgan was still more valuable than 60 runs in Hornsby's league, so yes they still need to be divided by the run environment.

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  • Murderers Row
    replied
    Originally posted by brett View Post
    Yes, my mistake. Baseruns already include steals.

    Your numbers are actually pretty close to their relative batting contribution.

    But how does Hornsby have 90 some batting runs? If a whole team had that they would only score 810 runs. A team of Hornsby's would score 1300+.
    You can't score negative runs, while you can have negative batting runs.

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  • Murderers Row
    replied
    ABR is:

    Batting Runs-(batters' park factor-1)*RPA*PA/PF)
    RPA is the number of runs per plate appearance in the league, PA is the plate appearance and the PF is park factor.

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  • brett
    replied
    Originally posted by Murderers Row View Post
    Also, Batting runs, and base runs are two different things, I believe.
    Yes, my mistake. Baseruns already include steals.

    Your numbers are actually pretty close to their relative batting contribution.

    But how does Hornsby have 90 some batting runs? If a whole team had that they would only score 810 runs. A team of Hornsby's would score 1300+.

    Just using OPS+, Morgan was at 187 and probably worth another 19 OPS+ points with steals for 206. Probably worth another 9 with other baserunning for 215.

    Hornsby was 222 and a slight negative for steals, and about +5 for other baserunning for 227.

    Hornsby played about 5% more so he would be about 239 to Morgan's 206 as an offensive player.

    They are certainly close.
    Last edited by brett; 03-17-2008, 05:02 PM.

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