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  • The Never-Ending Baseball History Thread

    This is it! If you have a question about a player, a team, an event, anything in baseball history, our team of experts will be there to answer your questions. If you want to lay out your reasons why player A is better than player B, or why team A is better than team B, you've come to the right spot. This isn't an attempt to end every other thread, and prevent others from debuting. Obviously there are numerous ideas that need their own separate threads, and we will never run out of those. And for those threads that are already going, let's keep it at that. We don't need commentary on Ty Cobb in here when we've already got a Ty Cobb discussion thread going. I'm looking for new analysis, articles, commentary, and answers to questions that may have yet to be asked. It's a thread without end, one rich in history, analysis, and above all, ideas. Let's get started.
    "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

    - Alvin Dark

  • #2
    I just want to begin by saying that, even though this may be appropriate for the stats thread, I have the resources to calculate relative stats through various numbers of PA and AB for every position player. This could be helpful for any who are curious how a lengthy career affects someones rates as opposed to someone who did not have a real decline, when making comparisons.
    "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

    - Alvin Dark

    Comment


    • #3
      This one's been bugging me since I omitted Johnny Mize from my all-Missouri team. One of the reasons why I rated him behind Pujols and Sisler is because the Cardinals traded him after six excellent years, at age 28, for a backup catcher, a spot starter, and an outfielder who never played one game for the Cardinals. Oh, and $50.000.

      Fifteen years earlier, the Cards traded Rogers Hornsby at a loss. But at least they got a Hall of Fame caliber player in Frankie Frisch for him. Besides, Hornsby had just embarrassed the team by winning a lawsuit over paying off his gambling debts. Cards owner Sam Breadon was not impressed by a man who hid behind state laws that essentially said that gambling debts were not enforceable.

      Is there any inside info as to why the Cards made such a stupid deal? Were they that hard up for cash? Or did Mize do something to really annoy Breadon?

      Comment


      • #4
        Here you go. This is from The Sporting News, December 18, 1941.
        Attached Files
        Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

        Comment


        • #5
          Who were the first college graduates in ML history?

          position player
          pitcher

          I've read Arlie Pond as pitcher but he debutted in 1895 so I'm skeptical.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Gee Walker View Post
            This one's been bugging me since I omitted Johnny Mize from my all-Missouri team. One of the reasons why I rated him behind Pujols and Sisler is because the Cardinals traded him after six excellent years, at age 28, for a backup catcher, a spot starter, and an outfielder who never played one game for the Cardinals. Oh, and $50.000.

            Fifteen years earlier, the Cards traded Rogers Hornsby at a loss. But at least they got a Hall of Fame caliber player in Frankie Frisch for him. Besides, Hornsby had just embarrassed the team by winning a lawsuit over paying off his gambling debts. Cards owner Sam Breadon was not impressed by a man who hid behind state laws that essentially said that gambling debts were not enforceable.

            Is there any inside info as to why the Cards made such a stupid deal? Were they that hard up for cash? Or did Mize do something to really annoy Breadon?
            Rickey believed that it was better to trade a player "a year too early than a year too late" plus he only got bonuses off what he could save on the teams payroll and I think he also got a commission of what he could sell a player for.

            The Cards were loaded with talent in the farm system at that time, he figured they could come up with someone. Maybe after seeing Musial come up in September of 41 and hit .400 he was sure he had a lefthanded bat to replace Mize. Anyway, they didn't really miss him, the 42 Cards went 106-48 and took NY in 5 games in the WS.
            It Might Be? It Could Be?? It Is!

            Comment


            • #7
              Can anyone identify these men who had a connection with baseball around 1915?

              A. Allison
              Bug Fisher
              Archie Hurlbert
              Howard Trumbo
              Norman H. Davis

              Could be:
              major league executives
              minor league executives
              sportswriters
              lawyers
              bankers

              Norman H. Davis was in the Wilson Administration, but did that Norman H. Davis have a baseball connection?

              Comment


              • #8
                You're thinking of the Dover Hall Club, aren't you? I couldn't identify the people, but I believe the correct names of two of those listed are Bud Fisher, and Archie Hurlburt. I'll keep looking later this afternoon, if someone doesn't beat me to the punch.
                Last edited by AstrosFan; 03-18-2008, 11:51 AM.
                "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

                - Alvin Dark

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
                  You're thinking of the Dover Hall Club, aren't you? I couldn't identify the people, but I believe the correct names of two of those listed are Bud Fisher, and Archie Hurlburt. I'll keep looking later this afternoon, if someone doesn't beat me to the punch.
                  Yes and thanks that helps.

                  Fisher was a cartoonist

                  Trumbo is a business associate of Cap Huston from Cuba
                  Last edited by Brian McKenna; 03-18-2008, 12:43 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What was the official score of the first official baseball game between Knickerbokers and a group of cricket players? Did anyone hit a home run in that game? If so who? Who were the starting pitchers?

                    In 1887 four players were banned for accepting bribes who were those players, and what they accept?

                    How did Moses Fleetwood Walker's career go?

                    In 1845 Alexander Joy Cartwright developed the first rules of Baseball. What were those rules?

                    Here's a few questions, that I would like answered.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I found an Archie Hurlburt who was a farmer born in Pennsylvania in 1894, but it seems unlikely that a 21 year-old farmer would be admitted into the Dover Hall Club.
                      "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

                      - Alvin Dark

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
                        I found an Archie Hurlburt who was a farmer born in Pennsylvania in 1894, but it seems unlikely that a 21 year-old farmer would be admitted into the Dover Hall Club.
                        Yeah, I can't find anything on him either. He could potentially be a local guy, a banker or a minor league exec or another friend of Huston or someone else.

                        I'm actually much more interested in the "A. Allison" that was listed as secretary.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by George H Ruth View Post
                          What was the official score of the first official baseball game between Knickerbokers and a group of cricket players? Did anyone hit a home run in that game? If so who? Who were the starting pitchers?

                          In 1887 four players were banned for accepting bribes who were those players, and what they accept?

                          How did Moses Fleetwood Walker's career go?

                          In 1845 Alexander Joy Cartwright developed the first rules of Baseball. What were those rules?

                          Here's a few questions, that I would like answered.

                          http://oha.alexandriava.gov/fortward...eball/#playing
                          In 1842, at the age of 22, Cartwright was among a group of men from New York City's financial district who gathered at a vacant lot at 27th Street and 4th Avenue in Manhattan to play "baseball." In 1845, they organized themselves into the Knickerbockers Base Ball Club, restricting the membership to 40 males and assessed annual dues of $5. The following year, Cartwright devised new rules and regulations, instituting foul lines, nine players to a team, nine innings to a game and set up a square infield, known as the "diamond" with 90-foot baselines to a side, bases in each corner. He also drew up guidelines for punctuality, designated the use of an umpire, determined that three strikes constituted an out, and that there would be three outs per side each inning.

                          Cartwright also banned the practice of "soaking" or "plugging" players (throwing the ball directly at the player to retire him.) To offset the lengthy, high scoring matches that were common in his day, Cartwright's rules also stated that a game was over when one of the teams had scored 21 "aces" or runs.

                          Using Cartwright's rules, the Knickerbockers challenged any team willing to test them. Even the mode of dress changed. Instead of standard civil fashions, the Knickerbockers wore white flannel shirts, blue woolen pantaloons, and straw hats on the playing field. The first of such matches took place on an old cricket ground, Elysian Field in Hoboken, New Jersey. Instead of pitching for his team, star player Cartwright was the umpire during this game and saw the Knickerbockers pummeled by the New York Nine, 23-1.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Could someone post a picture of "Mysterious" Walker NL and FL pitcher in the 1910's. I have looked around for a long time and never found one.

                            Also anyone know why he was called "Mysterious"?
                            "It's good to be young and a Giant." - Larry Doyle

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Here are the Knickerbocker rules:
                              http://www.baseball-almanac.com/rule11.shtml

                              Note that they have as much to do with organizing contests than in specific playing rules.

                              It's a stretch to pinpoint the root of these rules to one individual like Cartwright. Even if he did pen them, it was a group effort based on experience and desire for an orderly and pleasant afternoon of playing ball.

                              Comment

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