Give Bonds and McGwire some respect

[Murderers Row]

Two over 200 is certainly good, even if the two years in question are 205 and 204. It puts him in good company. The dropoff for him is pretty steep though. After a 188 and 183, we're talking a few 170s, a couple 160s and a 148. The four years in a row that he won the OPS+ "crown", he averaged 184. A guy like Joe Jackson, had three straight years in the 190s, something Bonds never did. Hornsby had four years of 200+, Ruth had eleven, Ted had six, Mantle had three, Gehrig had three, Foxx had two, Cobb had three. Actually the pre-roid Bonds numbers look similar to Foxx's with a less power but more speed.

And then Bonds would have played out the rest of his career, and would have been similar to Mantle, IMO.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

--The best players of that earlier era tended to separate from the league more than the best players of the modern era. I say that is because the league was a little easy to separate from. I'm sure you'll disagree though.

No, I would agree.

The issue here is that Bonds was an historically elite hitter pre-steriods. I disagree. Those two OPS+ seasons can only take you so far...all the other numbers suggest he was an amazing offensive player but just a great hitter.

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

Barry Bonds - Before he ever took steroids (which I'd estimate he started to do in '99 or '00), he was on course to retire as one of the 25 best baseball players of all time, and that is a conservative estimate. Barry Bonds was truly elite without steroids - every bit as good as Willie Mays. Steroids helped Bonds become arguably the best player ever. I don't think anyone has ever had a four year run quite like he did from 2001-04. He belongs in the Hall of Fame. If, instead of starting to use steroids, he retired after the '99 season, he'd be in the HOF right now.

Mark McGwire - Not a one-dimensional player. I repeat: MARK MCGWIRE WAS NOT A ONE-DIMENSIONAL PLAYER. He was a two-dimensional player. And his two dimensions were the two most important dimensions in baseball - hitting for power and reaching base. He has the best at bat to home run ratio of all time, and he was on base more frequently than A-Rod or Derek Jeter. How much steroids had to do with his power hitting is debatable. I have a very hard time saying whether or not McGwire would've achieved HOF numbers without steroids. He was certainly much, much better than Rob Deer, who someone compared him to in this thread. If you choose to ignore the steroid issue, it's as plain as day that McGwire has HOF numbers - he's a rich man's Harmon Killebrew.

[leecemark]

--- I agree he was better than Rob Deer. He was more like Gorman Thomas. A few great slugging years, then the league figured him out, then the injuries hit. He was on his way to being forgotten - the lesser of the Bash Brothers. Then he found some magic in a bottle and had a few more years of even greater slugging. He was a great HR hitter and he had a pretty good eye - although much of his OBP had more do with pitchers being scared of his HR prowess (is that really a 2nd "great" dimension?).
--He did have a pretty limited skill set however you look at it though, at least in his really great years. As a young player he was a pretty good firstbaseman, but he was a statue defensively when he was having his record setting seasons. He never ran well and couldn't run at all when he became Big Mac. He was never much of a hitter for average. The one thing he could do as well as anyone was hit the ball a long way when he happened to make contact.

[bob]

I agree that bonds should be in teh HoF for his pre-99 numbers.
And while i discredit his 01-04 stats, many players at that time did steroids.
Only Bonds had what can arguably be called the greatest peak of all time. Steroids helped sure, but it takes an exceptional hitter to make those numbers even with steroids.

[hellborn]

lol, and he'd get through 10 games before someone drilled him in the head for his antics. The lean Bonds would do very well back then playing small ball but too many factors would hurt his power numbers. Who knows how he would handle the bigger zone and much bigger fields.

Some of the fields were monstrous, but some were small. If he had been in StL, Philly (either park), League Park in Cleveland, Brooklyn, or Wrigley, his power numbers probably would have been good (even though Ebbets and Wrigley were deeper to CF and LF way back when). Washington, Braves Field, or Forbes Field...yeah, those would have killed him. Yankee and the Polo Grounds probably wouldn't have been bad for him, despite the deep alleys and CFs.
Ignoring his race, I can't imagine that Bonds would have had more problems with other players and pitchers than Cobb...he just would have had to had good fighting skills, like Ty.
Strike zone...very hard to say. I'm sure he still would have had good control of it, but whether he could hit the pitch at the letters where his famous tilt couldn't be used...who knows?

[digglahhh]

Good? yes
Great? no

Good players don't get into the HOF

He had a .394 career OBP. Maybe that isn't historically great, as I said. He's 78th all time in raw OBP - so whether you want to call that historically great or not is a matter of interpretation.

However, McGwire was a GREAT, GREAT, offensive player, taking his career numbers at face value, of course.

78th all time OBP
9th all time in SLG
11th all time in OPS
12th all time in OPS+
37th all time in OWP

These are undeniable HOF qualifications if taken at face value. Make subjective steroid adjustments if you want, but anybody who can't see that these numbers make for a shoo-in HOFer might as well take up another hobby...

[dl4060]

1st off, Mcquire is the definition of a one dimensional player. Average at best on D, and if he didn't hit it out the park, chances are he was getting put out.

This is absolutely not even remotely accurate. Mcgwire had a great batting eye, and drew many walks. His OBP was .394, which is outstanding, better than Tony Gwynn's.

So the answer to the question "who made outs more frequently when he stepped to the plate, Mark Mcgwire or Tony Gwynn," is Tony Gwynn. It never ceases to amaze me how many people fail to grasp this.

[dl4060]

mcgwire is about the equivalent to rob deer if you take away his roids. he's the prime example of what the juiced era values...one dimensional guys like mcgwire who can't do much outside of hitting homeruns and taking walks. his career ba is .263 for godsakes...and he was juicing since oakland.
.

The aspects of the game he excelled at are incredibly important, and lead to teams winning games. If you took a team, made each player average deffensively, and gave them BA right around the league average(which is what Mcgwire hit), but then gave them OBP and SLG numbers statistically as far above the average at their positions as Mcgwire was above the average 1B you would have a monstrous offensive team. One of the best ever.

Players do not need to be well rounded to be of incredible value on a baseball field.

[dl4060]

Two, people are myopically focused and BA and constantly compare him to Kingman, when he's much more like somebody like Killebrew.

This never ceases to amaze me. For one Kingman had a BA 30 points below the league average, while Mcgwire's was right about what the rest of the league hit. When you add in the value of Mcgwire's walks it really is not even close. When Mcgwire was still playing around 99' or 00' I read some article in SI where an idiot writer made these types of claims about Mcgwire, how one dimensional he was, blah blah blah.....If you are a professional sports writer making such a claim you are really not very good at your job.

[Iron Jaw]

Neither did anyone else who played in Ruth's time play against black or Hispanic players.

Hispanic players were not banned from the game in Ruth's time. Black Hispanic players were.

Acually, Ruth's teammate, pitcher Lefty Gomez, was part Mexican American.

Luis Castro, a Cuban American came up in 1902. Cuban born players, Rafael Almeida came up in 1911, and outfielder Armando Marsans also. Marsans Played 8 seasons in the bigs, and was a starting ss for the Reds (1912-13), and the Browns 1916-17. He was traded to the Yankees in 1917 and finished up his career in 1918.

Dolf Luque who's full name was Adolfo Domingo De Guzman Luque, was born in Cuba. Luque came up in 1914 with the Boston Braves, and pitched for 20 seasons in the majors, winning 194 games. His best season was 1923 when he posted a 27-8 record for the Reds.

Cuban born catcher, Mike Gonzalez (Miguel Angel Gonzalez) broke in with Boston (NL) in 1912. He played with various teams over the years, and was a starter with the Cardinals a few seasons. Miguel had an adequate career and was known as an outstanding strategist.

Gonzalez also became the first Hispanic manager in the history of the major leagues, when he managed the Cardinals for a few games in both, 1938 and 1940.

As stated, non black Hispanic players were allowed in the game. American Indians (and actually, there were quite a few good players out of that group) were considerably more common in the early game than they are today. Chief Bender was an ace.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Hispanic players were not banned from the game in Ruth's time. Black Hispanic players were.

I am aware that Hispanics were not barred in Ruth's time period and blacks were. I was speaking in general terms regarding Hispanics. My point that there was such a small number of actual Hispanics that the effect on the game was minimal, very minimal in that time period.[SHOELESSJOE3]

Acually, Ruth's teammate, pitcher Lefty Gomez, was part Mexican American.

Luis Castro, a Cuban American came up in 1902. Cuban born players, Rafael Almeida came up in 1911, and outfielder Armando Marsans also. Marsans Played 8 seasons in the bigs, and was a starting ss for the Reds (1912-13), and the Browns 1916-17. He was traded to the Yankees in 1917 and finished up his career in 1918.

Dolf Luque who's full name was Adolfo Domingo De Guzman Luque, was born in Cuba. Luque came up in 1914 with the Boston Braves, and pitched for 20 seasons in the majors, winning 194 games. His best season was 1923 when he posted a 27-8 record for the Reds.

Cuban born catcher, Mike Gonzalez (Miguel Angel Gonzalez) broke in with Boston (NL) in 1912. He played with various teams over the years, and was a starter with the Cardinals a few seasons. Miguel had an adequate career and was known as an outstanding strategist.

Gonzalez also became the first Hispanic manager in the history of the major leagues, when he managed the Cardinals for a few games in both, 1938 and 1940.

As stated, non black Hispanic players were allowed in the game. American Indians (and actually, there were quite a few good players out of that group) were considerably more common in the early game than they are today. Chief Bender was an ace.

True there was quite a mix of different ethnicity early in the game.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

True there was quite a mix of different ethnicity early in the game.

I think you could make a pretty good all-German team with Honus, Babe, and Lou as your core.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I think you could make a pretty good all-German team with Honus, Babe, and Lou as your core.

Lets not leave off Germany Schaefer on name alone..................OK no stick at all, maybe a coach.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Lets not leave off Germany Schaefer on name alone..................OK no stick at all, maybe a coach.

lol, that's funny. I thought about him and then thought..yeah, deserves a bench spot on the name alone.