Raines, Rose, Santo, Joe Jackson

[brett]

Rate these guys from 1-4 on how great they were.

Personally I think that Raines has a case.

[GiambiJuice]

Joe Jackson was the greatest, and I don't think it's particularly close. Of course he didn't have the longevity of the others, though.

[Blackout]

jackson
rose
santo
raines

[stejay]

1. Jackson
2. Rose
3. Santo
4. Raines

However, Rose and Santo are very close to each other, and took me some time to choose.

[Edgartohof]

1.) Joe Jackson
2.) Pete Rose

3.) Ron Santo
4.) Tim Raines

[Captain Cold Nose]

1. Joe
2. Pete
3. Ron
4. Rock

[brett]

WARP III/5 year peak
Raines: 123.7/49.0
Santo: 110.2/58.1
Rose: 151.3/43.2
Jackson: 75.1/39.4

Keep in mind that WARP III can not account for a players extra bases taken on the hits/sacs/outs of others. For a typical top baserunner like Raines this could account for about 2.0 WARP during each of his peak years, and about 20 over the course of a career. Also WARP sets the replacement level extremely low, about a 70 OPS+ hitter who is ALSO a mere replacement level fielder. Such a player would only be about a 30% winning percentage player

Win share based wins above a 40% winning percentage player (non-pitchers)
Rose: 65.1/24th
Raines: 49.7/60th
Santo: 33.7/150th
Jackson: 54.1/45th

Win share based wins are set on a scale about half of WARP III because they factor in a "win" as removing a loss and replacing it with a win, while WARP is simply games in the standings, ie 1 more win OR 1 fewer loss.

Again, no "unaccounted for bases"

[Honus Wagner Rules]

1. Raines
2. Jackson
3. Rose
4. Santo

[dgarza]

Why these 4?

[Edgartohof]

Why these 4?

best of those not in the Hall?

[stejay]

1. Raines
2. Jackson
3. Rose
4. Santo

What, are you serious?? The shoeless one is by far the best.

[penncentralpete]

I would hafta say that "Shoeless" Joe was the best (not only of these 4 players, but MANY others too!).

[Honus Wagner Rules]

What, are you serious??

I take this polls very seriously.

The shoeless one is by far the best.

In your opinion. In my opinion it's pretty much impossible to compare ball players that played over 60 years apart in completely different styles of baseball. But I'd rather Raines at his best. I saw quite a bit of Raines in the 1980s and he was simply a wonderful all around player. The 1983-87 Raines was pretty special ballplayer. I also tend to favor modern ballplayers over deadballers. To each his own.

[baseballPAP]

All depends if you're....
A-a career or a peak guy
and
B-skills or a results guy

A-Rose, Raines, Santo, Jackson....Rose took modest talent and supreme desire and turned it into a 25 or so year career, and all but the last 3 or so as an above average results player. Raines , another long career, and actually at a better peak than Rose, but in 5 or so less years. Santo, another small step back in each side of things. Jackson...awesome players, but only had 9 full seasons. I see him overrated more than any other player I think....people think he had great power (he didn't), great arm (probably at least a very good one), great glove (like Ted Williams 30 years later, I think he was much more concerned with his batting), great speed (possibly, but it didn't translate all that well).

B-Raines, Jackson, Santo, Rose....Raines had a little pop, great baserunning, great glove (but poor arm), hit for excellent average. 4 tools all the way. Jackson's skills were there in theory, but his results show him as an excellent average hitter with a very good arm. The rest is more anecdote than proof...I have no doubt he hit the ball hard, thats where all those extra base hits came from. But as to actual HR power...I see him as a line drive/gap hitter, not a slugger, even less so than Raines. Santo...good to excellent glove, power (but helped a lot by Wrigley), so-so average, not much for baserunning. Rose, while his best skill was dumping humpback line drives all over the field, he worked hard to become a good fielder wherever he was playing, even though his arm wasn't good, and his throwing motion was horribly awkward. He had maybe 6/10 speed, but used it along with a willingness to abuse his body to take a lot of extra bases. On pure natural talent though, he is last in this class.

Myself, being a career/results guy, rank them like this:
Rose
Raines
Santo
Jackson

[stejay]

I take this polls very seriously.



In your opinion. In my opinion it's pretty much impossible to compare ball players that played over 60 years apart in completely different styles of baseball. But I'd rather Raines at his best. I saw quite a bit of Raines in the 1980s and he was simply a wonderful all around player. The 1983-87 Raines was pretty special ballplayer. I also tend to favor modern ballplayers over deadballers. To each his own.

All depends if you're....
A-a career or a peak guy
and
B-skills or a results guy

A-Rose, Raines, Santo, Jackson....Rose took modest talent and supreme desire and turned it into a 25 or so year career, and all but the last 3 or so as an above average results player. Raines , another long career, and actually at a better peak than Rose, but in 5 or so less years. Santo, another small step back in each side of things. Jackson...awesome players, but only had 9 full seasons. I see him overrated more than any other player I think....people think he had great power (he didn't), great arm (probably at least a very good one), great glove (like Ted Williams 30 years later, I think he was much more concerned with his batting), great speed (possibly, but it didn't translate all that well).

B-Raines, Jackson, Santo, Rose....Raines had a little pop, great baserunning, great glove (but poor arm), hit for excellent average. 4 tools all the way. Jackson's skills were there in theory, but his results show him as an excellent average hitter with a very good arm. The rest is more anecdote than proof...I have no doubt he hit the ball hard, thats where all those extra base hits came from. But as to actual HR power...I see him as a line drive/gap hitter, not a slugger, even less so than Raines. Santo...good to excellent glove, power (but helped a lot by Wrigley), so-so average, not much for baserunning. Rose, while his best skill was dumping humpback line drives all over the field, he worked hard to become a good fielder wherever he was playing, even though his arm wasn't good, and his throwing motion was horribly awkward. He had maybe 6/10 speed, but used it along with a willingness to abuse his body to take a lot of extra bases. On pure natural talent though, he is last in this class.

Myself, being a career/results guy, rank them like this:
Rose
Raines
Santo
Jackson

They are your opinions, and I respect that, just as I hope people accept mine. Honus Wagner Rules, I'm sorry if it sounded kinda childish, but you know..