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Best right-handed hitters of all time?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by hellborn View Post
    Yes. But, I was just doing a little research and found that, while 2/3 of people are right eye dominant, it doesn't really correlate with handedness. So, it sounds like most left-handed AND most right-handed people are right eye dominant.

    Anyway, I did mean to say that a righty thrower batting lefty would have an advantage from the dominant eye being in front. It sounds like what is really the case is that 2/3 of ALL people would have the dominant eye in front while batting lefty. It would not be uncommon for a lefty thrower to have a right dominant eye, nor for a righty thrower to have a left dominant eye.

    As a righty batter with a dominant right eye, I feel that this is a big reason why I like lefty pitchers...I don't like to have a very open stance and feel like I'm looking at a righty pitcher across my nose, while looking at a lefty feels much more comfortable.
    Let me first deal with the last paragraph. I don't dispute what you say about feeling more comfortable, as a RH batter you get a better look at a LH pitcher.

    Don't know how to prove that it's that way because of your dominant right eye. This is common whether it's righty against righty or lefty against lefty. Regardless of the dominant eye no batter would feel good about batting from the same side as the pitcher. The angle has much to do with it. I don't think a lefty cares to bat against a lefty for the same reason, the angle and besides as you know a lefty curve breaks away from a lefty batter and a righty curve breaks away for a right handed batter.

    Look at what the best right handed hitters since 1960 do against RH and LH pitchers.

    --------------RH pitchers--------LH pitchers
    Pucket-----------.311-------------.337
    Clemente--------.311--------------.346
    Jeter------------.312--------------.334
    Ramirez---------.303---------------.342
    Martinez---------.308--------------.322

    There are some hugh gaps against RH and LH pitcher, batters whose dominant eye is not in front and they are all RH throwers.

    Now I can't disprove that dominant eye point you make and I'm not out to try that. But what the above shows is that without the dominant eye in front RH throwing RH batters hit much better against LH pitchers.

    We know that LH and RH batters that both throw RH hit better when the pitcher throws from the opposite side. My reason, what I believe more difficult for both to pick up the pitch when the pitcher throws from the same side and the ball breaking away.
    Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 03-27-2008, 10:01 PM.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by hellborn View Post
      And, of those 7 hitters, 4 (Splinter, Boggs, Carew, and Gehringer) threw righty. Plus Cobb, Eddie Mathews, Brett, Thome, etc. Other than the platoon advantage, also helps that the dominant eye (usually right in a righty) is in front that way.
      Here are some splits on the highest career batting averages (1960-2006) for hitters who throw left and bat left. Going on your point that RH throwers who bat will have their dominant eye, the right eye up front when batting. These do not fit that group because they are not RH throwers, they throw left.

      ---------------------RH pitcher-------------LH pitcher
      Gwynn----------------.345-------------------.325
      Helton----------------.341-------------------.307
      Mattingly-------------.314-------------------.296
      Matty Alou-----------.311--------------------.281

      Same story no matter what the combination of throwing and batting by the hitter they all hit better and much better in most cases when facing a pitcher throwing from the opposite side.

      This and the other stats I listed in my other post does not disprove that dominant eye theory but it leaves no doubt that no matter what the combo throw/bat for the hitter for sure they all hit better against opposite side pitchers.
      Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 03-27-2008, 10:42 PM.

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      • #48
        I thought I might take a look from the other side, the mound the pitcher. Since it seems all doubts are removed, more right handed pitchers in the game creates a more favorable hitting condition for left handed hitters, what about the fact that historically there has been a greater number of right handed batters, how does that effect the pitching.

        It's what I thought, RH pitchers are in a more favorable pitching position since there are more batters batting from the same side RH.

        I'm the guy that harps on the fact that numbers some time don't tell the whole story and I hope that if some find some flaws in this, let me know, I'm sure you will.

        The point, maybe not the only reason but just as LH batters have the edge facing the greater number of RH pitchers, RH pitchers have the edge over LH pitchers because there is a greater number on batters batting from the right side.

        Can't be coincidence or a fluke, all those innings pitched, all over 3000, 1950-2000, righty pitchers better numbers.


        One lefty under 3.00.....Six RH pitchers under 3.00
        Five leftys over 3.30.....No RH pitchers over 3.30

        All the numbers on this thread show batting edge to left handed batters, pitching edge to right handed pitchers.
        Attached Files
        Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 03-28-2008, 07:31 AM.

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        • #49
          Shoeless:

          Right off the top, you seem to be missing Koufax from your list of lefthanders.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by JRB View Post
            Shoeless:

            Right off the top, you seem to be missing Koufax from your list of lefthanders.
            I should have pointed out, I listed only pitchers with.....I believe either 3500 or 4000 innings minimum. I like to keep the minimum as high as I can, pitching or batting. Took a look at Sandy, 2325 innings pitched and 2.76 ERA.

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            • #51
              Koufax didn't reach 3000 innings...not even close. I was very surprised to learn that just now.

              I guess we'd really need to know the dominant eye for the batters listed to try to weed out any effect...as I mentioned above, the dominant eye doesn't track the dominant hand (at least according to the info I found online yesterday ). I found a couple places that said that roughly 2/3 of all people (left handed and right handed) are right eye dominant.
              There are a number of factors that contribute to the platoon advantage, of course...personally, I found it much easier to track and get the bat on a breaking ball from a lefty than a righty (as a righty batter). Just easier to get a read on a pitch moving into me that away from me. I think that my dominant eye being in back made things especially uncomfortable for me against righties because I used a closed stance...I would fly open from an even stance, much less an open one. Now that I'm too old and busy with my family to play baseball on a regular basis, I've corrected that flaw...
              "I throw him four wide ones, then try to pick him off first base." - Preacher Roe on pitching to Musial

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              • #52
                Originally posted by hellborn View Post
                Koufax didn't reach 3000 innings...not even close. I was very surprised to learn that just now.

                I guess we'd really need to know the dominant eye for the batters listed to try to weed out any effect...as I mentioned above, the dominant eye doesn't track the dominant hand (at least according to the info I found online yesterday ). I found a couple places that said that roughly 2/3 of all people (left handed and right handed) are right eye dominant.
                There are a number of factors that contribute to the platoon advantage, of course...personally, I found it much easier to track and get the bat on a breaking ball from a lefty than a righty (as a righty batter). Just easier to get a read on a pitch moving into me that away from me. I think that my dominant eye being in back made things especially uncomfortable for me against righties because I used a closed stance...I would fly open from an even stance, much less an open one. Now that I'm too old and busy with my family to play baseball on a regular basis, I've corrected that flaw...

                Until I looked it up I thought Sandy was closer to 3000.

                Agree on both issues..........need to know more about dominant eye for batters listed to try to weed out any effect. I'm probably not alone with my thoughts one this one. Even if true sounds very complicated and how can it be measured, how much of an effect does it have and to top it off how can the degree of effect be proven and accepted. Notice I don't say it does or does not exist but to prove it does and to what extent, that sound like some task.

                You say there are a number of other factors and there probably are but still at the top of my list is the difficulty of right against righty and left against lefty for the simple reasons harder to pick up the ball, angle of the delivery and the ball breaking away. Dominant eye a factor, could be but what ever the case batters hit better against opposite side throwers. Go to the extreme not that many in the game, side armers thats some angle, righty or lefty batter facing a sidearmer throwing from the same side, a nightmare.

                To better illustrate the advantage righty or lefty batting I listed the reverse, from the pitching end. Even from the mound, same situation better on average for the pitcher to be throwing against a hitter batting from the same side.

                Mariano Rivera a rare one with an effective way of pitching A right hander with a good fastball, not the greatest curve breaking away from the right handed batter but a unique pitch that actually breaks inside to the RH batter and also effective, a ball delivered from a right handed pitcher that can break away from even a left handed batter. It's a bit like that LH batter is facing a pitcher throwing from both sides, has to keep those lefty batters guessing, RH pitcher breaking away from a lefty.
                Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 03-28-2008, 08:30 AM.

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                • #53
                  It's discouraging to see how people are massively underrating Joe Dimaggio. He's clearly one of the top few greatest right handed hitters in history.

                  Look beyond the ubermetrics and "adjusted" stats we currently have.

                  Dimaggio's power numbers and OPS+ are greatly underestimated because he was a right hander playing in a great HR park for lefties and a HORRIBLE park for righties.

                  Originally posted by csh19792001 View Post
                  P. 148, Baseball Greatest Sluggers (Schell)

                  "Joe DiMaggio ranks as the third best RBI man in baseball history. Being a right handed hitter in Yankee Stadium cost DiMaggio quite a few home runs. As park effect estimation continues to improve, it will be useful to obtain separate park factors for right and left handed hitters. When that day comes and given the asymmetry of Yankee Stadium, I would not be surprised to see DiMaggio supplant Ruth as the best RBI producer in the game's history."
                  Originally posted by csh19792001 View Post
                  From: The Year Babe Ruth Hit 104 Home Runs, by Bill Jenkinson:

                  For example, Joe DiMaggio was acutely handicapped by playing at Yankee Stadium. Every time he batted in his home field during his entire career, he did so knowing that it was physically impossible for him to hit a home run to the half of the field directly in front of him. That's right! If you look at a baseball field from foul line to foul line, it has a 90-degree radius. From the power alley in left center field (430 in Joe's time) to the fence in deep right center field (407 feet), it is 45-degrees. And Joe DiMaggio never hit a single home run over the fences at Yankee Stadium in that 45-degree graveyard. It was just too far. Joe was plenty strong; he routinely hit balls in the 425-foot range. But that just wasn't good enough in cavernous Yankee Stadium. Like Ruth, he benefited from a few easy homers each season due to the short foul line distances. But he lost many more than he gained by constantly hitting long fly outs toward center field. Whereas most sluggers perform better on their home fields, Joe D hit only 41 percent of his career home runs in the Bronx. In his day, DiMaggio recorded 148 homers at Yankee Stadium. If he had hit the same exact pattern of batted balls with a typical modern stadium as his home, he would have belted about 225 homers during his home field career.

                  Which would bring his total to roughly 440 homeruns in 13 seasons.


                  Author/statistician Michael Schell confirms this with his research in this book:

                  Baseball's All-Time Best Sluggers: Adjusted Batting Performance from Strikeouts to Home Runs

                  Consider that it took nearly 70 years- including 43 years with the 162 game schedule and drastically reduced left field dimensions in 1976- for another right handed Yankee hitter to hit 40 homeruns (Dimaggio hit 46 in 1937, Rodriguez hit 48 in 2005).

                  Michael Schell calculated (based on the right handed park effects for Yankee Stadium) that ceteris paribus, Dimaggio would have had about 429 career homeruns. Obviously it's a projection, but clearly a very well substantiated one based on all of the information available on Yankee Stadium and right handed hitters in the old Yankee Stadium. Not coincidentally, according to Schell (p. 289), from 1946-73 Yankee right handed hitters hit only 37% of their homeruns at home

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by csh19792001 View Post
                    It's discouraging to see how people are massively underrating Joe Dimaggio. He's clearly one of the top few greatest right handed hitters in history.

                    Look beyond the ubermetrics and "adjusted" stats we currently have.

                    Dimaggio's power numbers and OPS+ are greatly underestimated because he was a right hander playing in a great HR park for lefties and a HORRIBLE park for righties.
                    For sure.

                    The highest career batting average for a RH handed batter 1935-2007 at .325.
                    Sixth highest batting average for RH hitters since 1900
                    Fourth highest slugging percentage RH batter since 1900
                    Then look at the park he played in. 213 home runs away and 148 at home. Give him even a conservative number of balls that were long outs in LCF going out instead, 4 bases on one swing and he's pushing .600 career slugging. No way to say, certainly not all outs, some extra base hits.
                    Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 03-28-2008, 05:05 PM.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                      For sure.

                      The highest career batting average for a RH handed batter 1935-2007 at .325.
                      Sixth highest batting average for RH hitters since 1900
                      Fourth highest slugging percentage RH batter since 1900
                      Then look at the park he played in. 213 home runs away and 148 at home. Give him even a conservative number of balls that were long outs in LCF going out instead, 4 bases on one swing and he's pushing .600 career slugging. No way to say, certainly not all outs, some extra base hits.
                      Here are Dimaggio's road numbers, which give us a rough idea of how he would have done playing his career in a neutral home park:

                      .333/.405/.610

                      Dimaggio's road slugging % alone is 4th all-time, behind only Ruth, Williams, and Gehrig.

                      Here's Brett's analysis of Dimaggio in neutral home park.

                      Originally posted by brett View Post
                      Something interesting.

                      If you look at adjusted league averages, Dimaggio was about 170 on the road. Remember that having an OPS 4% higher will give you an OPS+ 8% higher.

                      If he was 178 at home and 170 on the road, his OPS+ would have been 174.

                      I also think that the defensive metrics rank him low because they don't take into account the responsibilities of an outfielder who has to cut off the gap in a huge outfield.
                      The crux of brett's post: If Dimaggio had been given relatively neutral circumstances, he's probably be in the realm of Mantle and Hornsby in a stat like OPS+.

                      Can you imagine had he played his career on the Red Sox? With that park configuration and his style? His rate stats would've been some of the best ever put up.

                      Still looking for his career totals at Fenway!!!! Any info would be greatly appreciated.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by csh19792001 View Post
                        Here are Dimaggio's road numbers, which give us a rough idea of how he would have done playing his career in a neutral home park:

                        .333/.405/.610

                        Dimaggio's road slugging % alone is 4th all-time, behind only Ruth, Williams, and Gehrig.

                        Here's Brett's analysis of Dimaggio in neutral home park.



                        The crux of brett's post: If Dimaggio had been given relatively neutral circumstances, he's probably be in the realm of Mantle and Hornsby in a stat like OPS+.

                        Can you imagine had he played his career on the Red Sox? With that park configuration and his style? His rate stats would've been some of the best ever put up.

                        Still looking for his career totals at Fenway!!!! Any info would be greatly appreciated.

                        Not aware of any breakdown, Fenway in particular.

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                        • #57
                          In Clipper's day, Griffith, both Cleveland parks, and Comiskey were also very tough for righties. Fenway was probably the only soft touch for them...Yankee, League Park, Sportsman's Park, and even Griffith all favored lefties to some extent. Yankee sticks out like a sore thumb as a bad place for a righty now, even with the reduced dimensions, but being jobbed as a righty hitter back in Clipper's day was much more common!
                          Yankee was hard enough on Joe, and we have to understand this when we compare him to other players...but, I wonder if Griffith would have been even worse. Power alley was only 391, but 405 down the lines and 421 to center even with a slight jog in in LC.
                          "I throw him four wide ones, then try to pick him off first base." - Preacher Roe on pitching to Musial

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by hellborn View Post
                            In Clipper's day, Griffith, both Cleveland parks, and Comiskey were also very tough for righties. Fenway was probably the only soft touch for them...Yankee, League Park, Sportsman's Park, and even Griffith all favored lefties to some extent. Yankee sticks out like a sore thumb as a bad place for a righty now, even with the reduced dimensions, but being jobbed as a righty hitter back in Clipper's day was much more common!
                            Yankee was hard enough on Joe, and we have to understand this when we compare him to other players...but, I wonder if Griffith would have been even worse. Power alley was only 391, but 405 down the lines and 421 to center even with a slight jog in in LC.
                            Don't know if it still stands I think so, Joe was the only RH hitter in MLB to hit 3 home runs in one game at Griffith.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                              Don't know if it still stands I think so, Joe was the only RH hitter in MLB to hit 3 home runs in one game at Griffith.
                              Wow!!! Didn't know that...wonder if he hit the power alley just right on all three, 391 was not that hard a touch for him. Thing was, you were punished if you missed either way...that 405 down the LF line was incredible.

                              Greenberg and Foxx, Clipper's closest contemporaries on most lists here, had parks that at least weren't hurting them...Tiger and Shibe were both OK for righties, and Fenway was a nice place for Foxx. Although, I'll bet the Beast lined a bunch of shots off the Monster that would have been HRs elsewhere.

                              It is quite true, though, Clipper looks more impressive the more you dig into his story. That guy hitting .381 and having 46 HRs with Yankee as a home park (different seasons) and being a righty...well, those are some impressive feats.
                              "I throw him four wide ones, then try to pick him off first base." - Preacher Roe on pitching to Musial

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                                Don't know if it still stands I think so, Joe was the only RH hitter in MLB to hit 3 home runs in one game at Griffith.
                                From what I can find, Jim Lemon (1956) and Rocky Colavito (1961) also did it. Joe did it first though (1950). He was actually the first player with a 3 home run game at Griffith, left or right, apparently.

                                Stranger still: Those three guys appear to be the only ones to do it at Griffith, and they're all righties.
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                                5.

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