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Best right-handed hitters of all time?

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  • #91
    Albert Pujols may very well be the answer to this query. Based on numbers taken in isolation, no hitter has ever had a 9+ seasons equivalent to his to start their career, and he's right handed!

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Ubiquitous View Post
      If your argument is that OPS+ doesn't accurately measure true ability then that is your argument.
      My point, I suppose, was that due to somewhat unique circumstances, a career OPS+ of 174 (according to Brett's projections) more accurately represents Joe as a hitter than his actual OPS+ (155).

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      • #93
        But it doesn't. Let us tackle the assertion that Dimaggio would have a 174 OPS+ according to Brett. The problem with this view is of course the common flaw of adjusting one player's numbers and nobody elses. If you are going to make adjustments for one player then you have to make them for everybody and then why stop at only just the parks? What about talent level? Rules? Conditions of the field and equipment? So on and so on. In other words once you go down that road OPS+ isn't really the tool one should be using and trying to shoehorn skill into a value stat isn't really going to work.

        The 155 OPS+ accurately reflects Joe the hitter in terms of what OPS+ is designed to measure. Saying Joe is a 174 OPS+ hitter would make the stat more inaccurate not less inaccurate.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Ubiquitous View Post
          The 155 OPS+ accurately reflects Joe the hitter in terms of what OPS+ is designed to measure. Saying Joe is a 174 OPS+ hitter would make the stat more inaccurate not less inaccurate.
          You make good points in your last post here.

          I believe that the traditional OPS+ doesn't properly account for park effects by handedness, so I suppose in the case of players who played in parks where handedness was extremely weighted one way of another, I don't think OPS+ accurately measures what it is purported to measure. (That, I believe, is a very good working definition for "statistical validity").The "park factor" used in the formula is omnibus, and does not account for handedness.

          Now, you'd prob take the semantic route and say "Well, it wasn't designed to adjust production by both park AND handedness..it just states "adjusted for park"" and you'd be corrrect. Maybe it wasn't designed to be fully adjusted.

          You say "adjust for everyone".... that's what Schell tried to do, although he preempted it by kind of saying "look, I know this is kind of a frivolous exercise due to the number of obvious confounds posed by adjusting statistics in this way".

          Using his methodology, DiMaggio is 14th all time in home run percentage (He's 81st in reality). That's pretty much encapsulates what I've been trying to get across here.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Ubiquitous View Post
            But it doesn't. Let us tackle the assertion that Dimaggio would have a 174 OPS+ according to Brett. The problem with this view is of course the common flaw of adjusting one player's numbers and nobody elses. If you are going to make adjustments for one player then you have to make them for everybody and then why stop at only just the parks? What about talent level? Rules? Conditions of the field and equipment? So on and so on. In other words once you go down that road OPS+ isn't really the tool one should be using and trying to shoehorn skill into a value stat isn't really going to work.
            The problem is that OPS+ is a generally accepted baseline for comparing hitters. When debating DiMaggio's worth as a hitter, that's often where the conversation begins. "He couldn't have been a better hitter than Jimmy Foxx, because Foxx's OPS+ was better."

            Showing how OPS+ underrates DiMaggio's hitting is a way to open up the debate beyond just a listing of stats, and to reach out to those that aren't generally going to look much beyond value stats like OPS+ or WAR or Win Shares or WARP.

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            • #96
              I'll take a stab at the original question...

              1. Rogers Hornsby

              2. Albert Pujols
              3. Hank Aaron
              4. Joe DiMaggio
              5. Honus Wagner
              6. Willie Mays
              7. Frank Thomas
              8. Nap Lajoie
              9. Jimmie Foxx
              10. Frank Robinson

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              • #97
                BB-Ref needs to add a way to "nuetralize" stats for handedness. It would be interesting to see leaderboards if everyone was switched and their stats were recalculated

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by mwiggins View Post
                  I'll take a stab at the original question...

                  1. Rogers Hornsby

                  2. Albert Pujols
                  3. Hank Aaron
                  4. Joe DiMaggio
                  5. Honus Wagner
                  6. Willie Mays
                  7. Frank Thomas
                  8. Nap Lajoie
                  9. Jimmie Foxx
                  10. Frank Robinson
                  Pretty solid list.
                  1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                  1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                  1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                  The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                  The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by STLCards2 View Post
                    Pretty solid list.
                    shouldn't be Arod in the top ten(if you don't disqualify or discount drug users)?
                    His counting stats are already great and will be record breaking and his rate stats will remain a very good level.
                    I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by dominik View Post
                      shouldn't be Arod in the top ten(if you don't disqualify or discount drug users)?
                      His counting stats are already great and will be record breaking and his rate stats will remain a very good level.
                      As a hitter only and not considering his position, etc? He is close, for sure.
                      1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                      1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                      1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                      The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                      The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by STLCards2 View Post
                        As a hitter only and not considering his position, etc? He is close, for sure.
                        Do you have some offensive saber statistics? I'm not a Arod fan but 600 HRs(will be more) with a 300 avg is a great thing. same goes of course for manny who might be even a better hitter than Arod.

                        I just looked up that Arod is only 23rd RH hitter considering OPS+. but still his counting stats and longevity will likely get him ranked higher at the end.
                        Last edited by dominik; 07-01-2010, 04:40 PM.
                        I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by dominik View Post
                          Do you have some offensive saber statistics? I'm not a Arod fan but 600 HRs(will be more) with a 300 avg is a great thing. same goes of course for manny who might be even a better hitter than Arod.
                          Well, you could look at batting runs above replacement in the WAR database for starters.
                          1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                          1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                          1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                          The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                          The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by STLCards2 View Post
                            Well, you could look at batting runs above replacement in the WAR database for starters.
                            where do I find this? Bref has WAR but I couldn't find offensive WAR only?
                            I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by dominik View Post
                              where do I find this? Bref has WAR but I couldn't find offensive WAR only?
                              Adjusted batting runs is a close proxy:

                              Career BtRuns Leaders:1.Babe Ruth+/1384/10627, 2.Barry Bonds/1303/12606, 3.Ted Williams+/1137/9792, 4.Ty Cobb+/1037/13103, 5.Lou Gehrig+/979/9665, 6.Stan Musial+/959/12721, 7.Henry Aaron+/924/13941, 8.Rogers Hornsby+/882/9481, 9.Mickey Mantle+/860/9910, 10.Willie Mays+/84
                              1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                              1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                              1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                              The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                              The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                              Comment


                              • after revisiting this thread in 2013 I am ready to put Pujols over Manny for sure

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