Kirby Puckett vs. Bernie Williams

[GiambiJuice]

I think I would take Bernie in this one and it has nothing to do with my dislike of Puckett as a human being.

I don't understand Puckett being a 1st ballot Hall of Famer and Bernie probably not even getting close to the Hall of Fame.

I think Puckett is grossly overrated because of his batting average. Williams was clearly a better hitter, especially at their respective peaks.

Bernie had ELEVEN seasons in which he topped Puckett's career high in walks. Puckett may have been a better fielder. I don't know for sure. Is that enough to put him over the top into baseball immortality, while Williams is forgotten?

[Old Sweater]

I think I would take Bernie in this one and it has nothing to do with my dislike of Puckett as a human being.

I don't understand Puckett being a 1st ballot Hall of Famer and Bernie probably not even getting close to the Hall of Fame.

I think Puckett is grossly overrated because of his batting average. Williams was clearly a better hitter, especially at their respective peaks.

Bernie had ELEVEN seasons in which he topped Puckett's career high in walks. Puckett may have been a better fielder. I don't know for sure. Is that be enough to put him over the top into baseball immortality, while Williams is forgotten?

Valid points. Just go's to show you how important it is to be popular with the fans and BBWAA voters. Pucketts numbers are very similar to Williams and it makes one wonder if Puckett would have been a HOF'er without the eye injury that shortened his career.


Kirby Puckett

12 seasons/1071 runs/2304 hits/1085 rbi's/207 HR's/.318-.360-.477


Bernie Williams

16 seasons/1366 runs/2336 hits/1257 rbi's/287 HR's/.297-.381-.477

The OBP and BA is a dead push(.021) between the 2 players with the same slg%.

[willshad]

The differences lie more in context than in performance. During Puckett's time there werent a bunch of other players putting up the same or better numbers every season, much less other outfielders. He was consistently one of the best players in the game, and this shows in his performance in the MVP voting( 7 times in the top 7 in the MVP voting in a 9 year span!). Wlliams, however, was overshadowed each season by several better players. He never finished higher than 7th in the MVP voting, and besides that no higher than 11th. This was despite playing for playoff teams every season. Im not saying MVP voting is the best measure of a player's worth, but it is a good way to see how the guy was in relation to his peers. Williams was good, but clearly a notch below the 'best' outfielders in the game. He was a second tier star, while Kirby was one of the 5 or so top guys in baseball throughout most of his career. Also, Puckett was the best player on his team almost every year, and they were successful teams. Williams shared the spotlight with Jeter, Tino, O'neil, etc, and never really stood out as even the best player on his own team..it was seen as more of a team effort with no superstars.

[hellborn]

This is a tough one for me, there are valid points on both sides. Puckett played in a time of lower offense, but had the easier home park (even though Yankee isn't bad for a switch hitter). Their career OPS+ numbers are very close, and Puckett was still playing quite well when he was forced to retire...his last OPS+ is higher than his career mark.
Given that Puckett was a more complete fielder (Bernie could never throw) and a recognized leader on and off the field, I'd actually go with him...surprises me a little to write that, because I like Bernie a lot.

It is my most sincere hope that Kirby's troubles later in life were more the sign of a middle aged man struggling with drinking and not being a prominent athlete anymore than just being a bad person. I think that his wife claimed that she suffered from a persistent pattern of abuse, though...so sad. It's as if we found out that Tom Hanks is a child molester, or Patton was a coward. "Pillars of inspiration are all falling down", as Uncle Tupelo (Jay Farrar) said.

[KCGHOST]

Puckett's HoF selection comes under the guise of what I refer to as the Koufax Exemption. Every once in a while a player whose career is cut short will be given extra credit if the reason is not perceived as baseball related. This is not applied evenly or fairly but it does happen. Addie, Joss, Sandy Koufax, and Kirby Puckett would be good examples of this. Oh, this exemption is not invoked very often nor is it done equitably.

Puckett also benefited immensely from being SportsCenter friendly. He spent a lot of time in highlight reels due to his catches reaching over the low fence at the Metrodome.

As for Puckett vs Williams, I would take Williams, but only because he career was longer.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Puckett's HoF selection comes under the guise of what I refer to as the Koufax Exemption. Every once in a while a player whose career is cut short will be given extra credit if the reason is not perceived as baseball related. This is not applied evenly or fairly but it does happen. Addie, Joss, Sandy Koufax, and Kirby Puckett would be good examples of this. Oh, this exemption is not invoked very often nor is it done equitably.

Puckett also benefited immensely from being SportsCenter friendly. He spent a lot of time in highlight reels due to his catches reaching over the low fence at the Metrodome.

As for Puckett vs Williams, I would take Williams, but only because he career was longer.

Williams was probably the better player. But as many have already stated Pickett's prime was in a much lower offensive era. Also, Puckett was a STAR in his prime. His style of game, his on-the-field enthusiasm, his World Series heroics (see '91 World Series highlights), his breakout '86 season, his 200 hit seasons, etc., gives Puckett any extra edge in terms of perception with the fans and HoF voters. Can anyone think off the top of their head a Bernie Williams "moment"?

[GiambiJuice]

I don't buy the "Puckett played in a lower offensive era" argument. While it's true that he played in a lower offensive environment, if he was truly a better hitter than Bernie, it would be reflected in OPS+, and Williams still comes out ahead. The only reason the difference between them in OPS+ is so slight is because Williams played longer and had a few seasons at the end of his career that were really bad. But at their peaks, I don't think it's very close hitting-wise.

Top 5 OPS+ seasons
Williams: 160, 149, 147, 141, 140,
Puckett: 152, 141, 138, 132, 131,

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I don't buy the "Puckett played in a lower offensive era" argument. While it's true that he played in a lower offensive environment, if he was truly a better hitter than Bernie, it would be reflected in OPS+, and Williams still comes out ahead. The only reason the difference between them in OPS+ is so slight is because Williams played longer and had a few seasons at the end of his career that were really bad. But at their peaks, I don't think it's very close hitting-wise.

Top 5 OPS+ seasons
Williams: 160, 149, 147, 141, 140,
Puckett: 152, 141, 138, 132, 131,

Puckett isn't int he HoF because of his OPS+. Yes on strict sabermetic analysis Williams was a more valuable hitter. Butt that irrelevant really. Puckett was perceived as the greater star by far for several reasons. Puckett has many subjective elements to his HoF candidacy that Williams doesn't have.

[GiambiJuice]

Puckett isn't int he HoF because of his OPS+. Yes on strict sabermetic analysis Williams was a more valuable hitter. Butt that irrelevant really. Puckett was perceived as the greater star by far for several reasons. Puckett has many subjective elements to his HoF candidacy that Williams doesn't have.

I agree with you 100%. And that was the purpose of this thread. To show that Puckett is only better in perception, but not in reality.

[hellborn]

Puckett was 35 in his last season, and had an OPS+ of 130. Williams was at 107-108 at 34 and 35, and then dropped below average. I think that it's likely that Kirby's career OPS+ would have dropped a few more points below Bernie's if he hadn't had the retina problems, but he also may have ended up having a somewhat longer career, as he was aging better. Maybe Puckett would have hit a wall at 36, who knows...but, he was hitting quite well at 35, better than Bernie.
Bernie was probably the better hitter at his peak, I agree. I also think that Puckett was a better CFer who could throw well, and had a (publicly) effervescent personality that I feel had a positive effect on his team. I also count Bernie with a 9 year peak, and Puckett with 10 before the eye problems, and still playing well at the end...those who would give Puckett the special exemption for the freakish non-baseball injury may be correct to think that he could have extended that peak.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I agree with you 100%. And that was the purpose of this thread. To show that Puckett is only better in perception, but not in reality.

That's fine. Williams was more valuable but Puckett was the greater player. Greatness isn't just about who has the higher OPS+.

[leecemark]

--OPS+ is not the be all and end all of offensive evaluation. It is merely a rough tool for comparing players of different types or from different eras. OPS+ in general saw fewer exptremes in Puckett's time than Williams. Whether that was becuase of fewer or lesser great players or better average players I'll leave to you to decide.
--Regardless of similar relative stats, there is little doubt that Puckett stood out compared to his comtemporaries than Bernie Williams. Williams was regarded as just another (very) good player. Puckett was regarded as one of the very best players in baseball - and this was not a perception that arose after the untimely end of his career. The Ink test may lean more toward tradiitonal than advances stats, but then so do Hall of Fame voters. Puckett has a huge advantage in Black/Gray Ink - 92nd/153rd to 400th/403rd. The former numbers are suggestive of a Hall of Famer (and not based on a sympathetic view), while the latte rare not.

[DoubleX]

Puckett's Hall selection has been getting some criticism in recent years, and I'm starting to think that a lot of the people criticizing him are perhaps too young to remember Puckett in his prime. There is absolutely no question that up until his eye problems forced him to retire, Puckett was one of the biggest stars in the game for a full decade. He was one of the faces of baseball of his time.

Good arguments can definitely be made for Bernie being the better hitter, but in the context of his time, I'd say Puckett was the better player, and certainly a much bigger star. Puckett also has the "what if" factor going for him as others have mentioned here. Bernie was in a terrible decline by his mid 30s, whereas Puckett was still going strong when his career abruptly ended. Given his play at that time, he was probably as safe a bet as anyone to cruise past 3000 hits, and I think that's something that sticks in peoples' minds when considering his Hall candidacy.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Good arguments can definitely be made for Bernie being the better hitter, but in the context of his time, I'd say Puckett was the better player, and certainly a much bigger star. Puckett also has the "what if" factor going for him as others have mentioned here. Bernie was in a terrible decline by his mid 30s, whereas Puckett was still going strong when his career abruptly ended. Given his play at that time, he was probably as safe a bet as anyone to cruise past 3000 hits, and I think that's something that sticks in peoples' minds when considering his Hall candidacy.

I seem to remember that he was one of the fastest players to get to 2,000 hits in terms of games played.

[brett]

I seem to remember that he was one of the fastest players to get to 2,000 hits in terms of games played.

That is part of it. Puckett was perceived as a 3000 hit lock (with a .300 average) and some other positives.

Puckett played 12 totally complete seasons in succession. Except for the rookie year he played over 90% of his teams games every season and only 1 non-strike year with less than 152, so his durability made it very likely that he would get to 3000. He had 2304 in only 1783 games. Funny, I always thought that if Sandberg had gotten knocked out of the game with an injury in '94 he would have been a first ballot guy too.

It WAS harder to separate in OPS+ (or rarer) too. Maybe the hitters just weren't as good. I can't, off the top of my head think of anyone in the AL from '84-'89 who is in the top 100 in career OPS+. (Oh yea, Albert Belle and Mark Mcgwire).


I think they are both overrated defensively, but Williams was really below average as a center fielder for 2/3 of his career.