Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Girl in baseball

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • sturg1dj
    replied
    actually, after this event Landis himself voided Mitchell's contract

    this is said to have been a set-up...but if it were then why didn't she strikeout all 3 batters she faced? She walked Lazzeri...but unless who control was nowhere near the plate you would think that if it were a setup the ump would have given her a good zone.


    she struck out Ruth, Gehrig and then walked Lazzeri


    "I don't know what's going to happen if they begin to let women in baseball. Of course, they will never make good. Why? Because they are too delicate. It would kill them to play ball every day." - Babe Ruth

    here is some info


    A few days later, Baseball Commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis voided Mitchell's contract, claiming that baseball was "too strenuous" for a woman. It was a gross injustice and an obvious ploy to curb the embarrassment of their bruised male egos. (MLB formally banned the signing of women to contracts on June 21, 1952).

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian McKenna
    replied
    I think it basically - like everything else - comes down to supply and demand. Female baseball is just not that popular - for several basic reasons:
    1) Softball is much more popular and thus young women are pushed towards it.
    2) Women simply do not watch sports and drive the market nearly as much as males.
    3) Most people, at this point, would rather watch males play baseball than females.

    Until female baseball can attract the fans in significant levels and likewise pull talent from a wider pool, it will be extremely difficult for a female player to reach the level to ascend into the highest levels of the minors.

    This is not to say women can't do it. I would personally love to see my girl kick butt on the ball field. But, there are obstacles:
    1) Parents are not geared towards pushing girls into baseball
    2) Girls, for the most part, are not geared to play hardball.
    3) Girls have very few female role models to follow in baseball - and that starts with their mother first, then family, friends and ultimately society.
    4) The baseball "institution" from the lowest level coach up to MLB itself has traditionally not included females on the field.
    5) You have to play against better players to get better - until women enter baseball in a large scale and play against guys on a large scale, they will not produce enough potential candidates that can ascend the minor league system.
    6) If only 1 in how many boys can make the minors, than what % do you think it's possible for women to do so. And, actually that % is zero now - but say that was to turn in the next few decades and say by a stretch that 10% of girls play hardball by 2040 at a comparable level to boys their age - than they still would have only 1/10 the % of the average boy.

    In short, it's a numbers game. In order for girls to get to the point where they could compete for potential minor league jobs with boys, they have to participate in large enough quantities that the few who can compete (at the top level) develop their skills against the best athletes and thus rise to the top. That is a ways away.

    One can focus on tradition, prejudice or any other number of intellectual ideas. They obviously need to be overcome. But, the real impediments lie at the bottom rung - getting the girls and their families interested - developing the talent - competing against top talent. It's a numbers game - if you're drawing from an extremely small pool, you're chances are significantly reduced.

    Plus, baseball is not a simple game where any yahoo can pick up a ball and throw it in a hoop or kick a ball at a goal post. Skills take years to develop in baseball. That is why so many young men forgo a college education for a chance in the minors. And there in lies another impediment - will girls and their families feel it is in their best interests to skip college.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Originally posted by Brian McKenna View Post
    This has been discussed extensively in the female baseball section if anyone wants to check it out in the archives.
    And now it's being discussed extensively here too. Hope we don't get caught. Might have to stay after school and clap erasers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian McKenna
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
    Do women have the physical potential to compete with men in baseball?
    This has been discussed extensively in the female baseball section if anyone wants to check it out in the archives.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Do women have the physical potential to compete with men in baseball? I don't know. But consider this. The world record for the women's 100 meters is Flojo's 10.49, set at the 1988 US Olympic trials for Seoul Olympics, on July 16, 1988, at Indianapolis, IN.

    At the beginning of that day, the women's 100m world record had stood at 10.76, by Evelyn Ashford.

    Every college in the world has much faster times. Hundreds of men have run faster. Flojo only achieved her WR using steroids, even though she was never caught. She was savvy enough to discontinue early enough before competitions, that she never failed a urine test. Even though she only weighed 130 lbs., Flojo could squat 320 lbs.

    Marion Jones, also using steroids, could only run 10.65. That is the closest any woman has ever come to Florence Griffith Joyner's (Flojo) world record, outside of Flojo herself. In that same day she set the record, she also recorded times of 10.60 (wind-aided), 10.70, 10.61!

    But baseball is much more than stronger, faster, bigger. Baseball is not weight-lifting/sprinting. Baseball is very involved with skill, finesse, instinct, judgment, artistry.

    Every year, at spring training camps around America, bigger, stronger, faster players lose out to smaller, quicker, weaker peers. If bigger, stronger, faster decided the issue, than Mickey Mantle would have become the greatest player.

    But The Mick was never known to arrive early at the park to hone his tools into skills. So, Mickey was out-lasted by the Pete Roses/Nellie Foxs.

    Could Rose get down to 1B faster than Flojo? Rose could not get down to 1B faster than me in my skinny years. And I could not hope to outrun Flojo!

    So, my point is that women needn't be bigger, faster, stronger than their male counter-parts to outperform them on the playing field.

    Rose out-performed Jose Canseco, who was many times stronger, faster and bigger. But Canseco was a time-card puncher, while Rose arrived at the park early to hone his limited skills. Rose was hungrier.

    So, the game is not to the more physically gifted, but to the hungriest. I think women are kept out for a number of bad reasons.

    1. Tradition
    2. Prejudice
    3. Job security for the men.
    4. Fear by the owners that it would anger fans to go so far against tradition.
    5. Lack of motivation by women to tear down the barricades. Something like letting women into combat.
    6. Lack of motive by women to train for a profession unlikely to welcome them. So they go where they are already welcomed. Ice skating, gymnastics, etc.
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-30-2008, 09:09 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • digglahhh
    replied
    Mitchell was, indeed, a set-up.

    There's some info about her in the Women's Baseball Forum.

    There is an ostensible ban against women, but it was not instituted because of a pre-orchestrated event in which Ruth was struck out.

    I would assume the ban would easily be overridden today, but without MLB-caliber female players, it hasn't really been tested. Personally, I'd love to see women's baseball develop much further, and a female pro would probably do a good deal to help that movement, of course I wouldn't support a token player simply for that sake though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sultan_1895-1948
    replied
    Originally posted by ipitch View Post
    If women are banned from MLB now, I bet the ban would be quickly lifted if a MLB-caliber woman player came along.
    Don't hold your breath.

    The Jackie Mitchell thing was set-up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Originally posted by Victory Faust View Post
    If a woman came along who had the goods and could help a team win, I think she would get a shot. This isn't the 1920s....social attitudes have changed, and while baseball is still steeped in conservatism, money supercedes everything.

    And can you imagine how much merchandise the first female major leaguer will sell? How many nationally-televised games she would appear in? It boggles the mind.
    If this were accurate, then why are there not more women in mid-management positions, managers, coaches, umpires, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian McKenna
    replied
    Originally posted by blacksilverfan12 View Post
    Kind of like the ban against blacks. So it sounds like there was one of those "gentlemen's agreement" things
    I liken it more like a "corporate memo" or a "management decision." They may not be formally listed in some rule book but they are heeded nonetheless. Of course this one is out dated and for the most part unknown by current management.

    Leave a comment:


  • Victory Faust
    replied
    If a woman came along who had the goods and could help a team win, I think she would get a shot. This isn't the 1920s....social attitudes have changed, and while baseball is still steeped in conservatism, money supercedes everything.

    And can you imagine how much merchandise the first female major leaguer will sell? How many nationally-televised games she would appear in? It boggles the mind.

    Leave a comment:


  • blacksilverfan12
    replied
    Originally posted by Brian McKenna View Post
    The voiding of Engle's contract sounds like a ban to me. It was a decision administered and on behalf of both MLB and the National Association. The NA president stood at the head of the NA but he still answered to MLB.

    A ban in no way needs to be formally written down. It can and has been done in professional baseball:
    -orally
    -by word of mouth
    -by colleagues' pressure
    -by general understanding
    -by edict as the voiding of Engle's contract.

    Baseball officials throughout the land saw and understood Engle's voided contract as a line they themselves should not cross.
    Kind of like the ban against blacks. So it sounds like there was one of those "gentlemen's agreement" things

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Most female owners inherited teams from their deceased husbands.
    Code:
    Edith (Forney) (Dunn) Pross-------------------Apr.19	1863-1945	Jul.25	82
    Ida Virginia Shibe [SIZE="1"](wife of Thomas)[/SIZE]---------------Jun.17	1871-1952	My.13	82
    Florence (Wolf) Dreyfuss----------------------Mar.31	1872-1950	My.12	78
    Grace Elizabeth Reidy Comiskey  [SIZE="1"](wife of J. Louis)[/SIZE]My.15	1893-1956	Dec.10	63
    Joan (Whitney) Payson-------------------------Feb. 5	1903-1975	Oct. 4	72
    Jean Remington (Hollander) Yawkey-------------Jan.24	1909-1992	Feb.26	83
    Dorothy  (Comiskey) Rigley  [SIZE="1"](daughter of J. Louis)[/SIZE]-Dec. 26	1917-1971	Jan. 22	54
    Joan Beverly (Mansfield) Kroc-----------------Aug.27	1928-2003	Oct.12	75
    Margaret (Unnewehr) (Marge) Schott------------Aug.28	1928- 2004	Mar.2	75
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-29-2008, 12:55 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian McKenna
    replied
    The voiding of Engle's contract sounds like a ban to me. It was a decision administered and on behalf of both MLB and the National Association. The NA president stood at the head of the NA but he still answered to MLB.

    A ban in no way needs to be formally written down. It can and has been done in professional baseball:
    -orally
    -by word of mouth
    -by colleagues' pressure
    -by general understanding
    -by edict as the voiding of Engle's contract.

    Baseball officials throughout the land saw and understood Engle's voided contract as a line they themselves should not cross.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian McKenna
    replied
    19TH CENTURY

    Women have shown an interest in baseball from the very beginning. Some even came for the sport rather than male companionship. In turn, baseball sought women as fans for more than financial reasons. Baseball in the late 19th century was a rowdy game played by even rowdier men. Women spectators, hopefully, would keep the men in line and help clean up the sport’s image. Also, Ladies’ Days were initiated to draw a larger male crowd.

    Female barnstorming teams existed as far back as the 1860s. College programs paralleled the professional ventures. This is not to say that they were accepted by mainstream America. Then, as today, such women were scorned by many. They were often derided in the press as no more than prostitutes.

    Early exhibition matches would pit such teams as the “Blondes” versus the “Brunettes.” In Philadelphia in 1883 a team called the Young Ladies Baseball Club was formed. They would travel throughout the East Coast billed as an entertainment spectacle offering sideshow amusements in the same fashion as black teams of a later era. Traveling female clubs called “Bloomer Girls” were formed throughout the country. Though these teams did not play each other, they pitted their skills against various male opponents. Most Bloomer Girl teams consisted of both male and female members. In fact, Smokey Joe Wood and Rogers Hornsby started out as Bloomer Girls. The Bloomer Girl concept was very popular, prompting unrelated teams by the same name to pop up throughout the country. The concept drew fan attention well into the 20th century.

    Player
    On July 5, 1898 future Hall of Famer, New York Yankee dynasty builder and part-time showman Ed Barrow allowed Lizzie Arlington (a.k.a. Lizzie Stroud) to pitch one inning for Reading in the Atlantic League. As league president, Barrow reveled in the thought of promoting the first woman to appear in organized baseball. Arlington allowed no runs on two hits as the minor league’s first female. She was a student of Boston pitcher Jack Stivetts, also known as the best hitting pitcher of the 19th century.

    Front Office
    Women began joining the front office of National League teams in the late 1800s. Florence Knebelkamp, sister of Louisville owner William Knebelkamp, served for years as the club’s traveling secretary. Unusual for the times, she assumed the full duties of the position, not merely hand selected chores.

    On February 17, 1900 Mary Hamilton Van Derbeck gained control of the Detroit American League franchise and Bennett Park from the courts in lieu of unpaid alimony. However, her ex-husband George Van Derbeck quickly filed the required bond, regained control of the Tigers and sold the franchise prior to the American League gaining major league status, depriving her of a place in history.

    EARLY 20TH CENTURY

    Many Bloomer Girl teams traveled throughout the country in the first few decades of the 20th century. Maud Nelson was a long-time renowned organizer and the most famous of the early pitchers. Beginning her career in the 1890s, she pitched well into her 40s. Nelson became a constant on the diamonds lasting over forty years as a pitcher, third baseman, manager and entrepreneur.

    Few women ballplayers gained much notoriety outside their community in the early decades of the 20th century except for Lizzie Murphy from Rhode Island, 1915-35, and Alta Weiss from Ohio. Weiss was discovered in 1907 playing catch with boys. She was quickly signed by an Ohio independent club and became the star attraction, even pitching an exhibition game at League Park in Cleveland. Her father purchased a semi-pro club and re-named it the Weiss All-Stars. They traveled throughout Ohio and Kentucky. In 1909 she left baseball to go to medical school where she graduated in 1914, naturally, the only woman in her class. Murphy played professionally against male clubs from age fifteen in 1909 to 1935. Mostly, she played for the barnstorming Boston All-Stars who often vied with and against major leaguers.

    An all-female Bloomer Girl team traveled to Japan in the 1920s to play exhibition games against male college teams.

    To spark fan interest and attendance, the Negro leagues fielded female ballplayers. First, Pearl Barrett saw action with the Havana Stars in 1917 and Isabel Baxter played one game at second for the Cleveland Giants in 1933. Later, the Indianapolis Clowns introduced Toni Stone and Connie Morgan as second basemen in 1953 and 1954, respectively. Peanut Johnson also pitched for the team in the latter year. Reportedly, Stone asked for a tryout with the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League but was ignored.

    Jackie Mitchell may have been the first woman of the century to sign a professional contract in organized baseball. In 1932 the “Barnum of Baseball,” Joe Engel, was manager of the Chattanooga Lookouts of the Southern Association. Mitchell was only 17 years old at the time but had been trained to pitch by Hall of Famer Dazzy Vance. In a publicity stunt on April 2nd she struck out a chuckling Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig. Engel planned to use her in regular league games but the next day Judge Landis overturned her contract claiming that organized baseball was “too strenuous” for women to play.

    In Class-D ball in 1936 Sunny Dunlap pitched the entire game for the Fayetteville Bears. It may be the last appearance of a woman in organized baseball.

    The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League kicked off during World War II. The brainchild of Chicago Cubs owner Phillip Wrigley, it lasted from 1943-54. Max Carey, among others, helped organize the league and the list of managers included Dave Bancroft, Carey, Jimmie Foxx, Bill Wambsganss and Johnny Gottselig, a hockey pro. Today, it is best remembered for the 1992 movie A League of Their Own.

    Umpire
    Amanda Clement was an umpire around the turn of the century. She toiled in over 300 games in six years, drawing praise from Teddy Roosevelt, among others.

    Media
    Leslie Scarsella, wife of Cincinnati pinch hitter Les, called play-by-play for a Reds’ game in 1939. Another pioneer was sportswriter Jeane Hofmann. Writing for the New York Journal-American in the 1940s, she incurred harassment from peers and players alike. Her job was made even more difficult as she found clubhouses and press boxes inaccessible to women.

    Front Office
    Helene Britton, the first woman to own a major league club, inherited the St. Louis Cardinals from her uncle Stanley Robison in 1911. Despite efforts to force her out by other National League owners, Britton stood her ground. After her marriage broke up, she assumed control over day-to-day operations from her husband, becoming the first woman to actively run a major league club. Britton sold the team in 1916. Grace Comiskey became the second female owner after the death of her husband.

    Effa Manley stands out among female owners in both verve and intelligence. For years, she ran the Newark Eagles in the Negro leagues. Likewise, NAACP leader Olivia Taylor ran the Indianapolis ABCs. In the minors retail magnate Lucille Thomas purchased a Western League franchise in 1930.

    Manley was co-owner of the Newark Eagles with her husband, Abe. It had been his life-long dream to own a baseball team. With his eye for talent Abe scouted up-and-coming ballplayers. Effa handled the business and public relations end of the operation. She was also a visionary and protector of the Negro leagues. This led to many clashes at executive meetings and informal gatherings. In 2006 she became the first female elected to Cooperstown.

    The two met at the 1932 World Series and soon married. Abe was twenty years her senior and a professional gambler. They purchased the franchise three years later. Effa soon became a leader within the Negro National League, even helping to squelch a threatened player strike.

    Manley is best known today for her outspoken condemnation of the player raids by major league executives after Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier. In 1947 she sold Larry Doby to Bill Veeck in Cleveland. However, she hired a lawyer when Branch Rickey of Brooklyn tried to simply take Monte Irvin without providing compensation. Rickey then offered $2,500 but was refused. Manley later sold Irvin to the Giants for $5,000. Irvin, like others, took a pay cut,$1,500, to join the majors. She was elected to the Hall of Fame in 2007.

    J.L. Wilkinson, owner of the Kansas City Monarchs, was especially hit hard, losing Satchel Paige, Jackie Robinson, Ernie Banks and Elston Howard to the major leagues without receiving a cent. Understandably, it left him bitter.

    In the Field
    Former Bloomer Girl Edith Houghton scouted for the Philadelphia Phillies after World War II.

    LATE 20TH CENTURY

    Players
    In June 1952 the Harrisburg Senators of the Class-B Inter-State League announced that they were going to sign 24-year-old shortstop Eleanor Engle. Before she could take the field, the league president stepped in and banned the signing of women. On the 21st Commissioner Ford Frick went one step further and formally banned the signing of women on all teams in organized baseball. The ruling stands today.

    During the 1950s, righthanded pitcher Peanut Johnson, second baseman Connie Morgan and second baseman Toni Stone played for the Indianapolis Clowns in the Negro American League. Johnson went 33-8 from 1953-55. Stone replaced Hank Aaron on the Clowns in 1953 after several seasons on pro teams and even appeared in the East-West Classic. Johnson and her friend, Rita Clark, showed up at training camp and tried out for the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League but the African-Americans never received a reply.

    Mostly, women today play softball. It is rare to find a fiercely competitive and serious female baseball player. One who qualifies is Julie Croteau. She was the first woman to play in a NCAA game when she took the field for St. Mary’s College, Maryland in March 1989. The first baseman played only one year, leaving on account of continual harassment. She would later reappear on the Coors Brewery-sponsored Colorado Silver Bullets in 1994.

    The Silver Bullets were a serious, female, professional baseball team that traveled throughout the country playing male teams during the 1990s. They were managed by Hall of Fame knuckleball pitcher Phil Niekro.

    Ila Borders on May 31, 1997 became one of the few women to play in a minor league game when she went to the mound in relief in the independent Northern League for the St. Paul Saints against Souix Falls. On July 26, 1998 the southpaw notched her first victory. Still pitching in ‘99, Borders appeared in fifteen games, winning one and amassing a 1.76 ERA. She retired in July 2000 with a 2-4 record in 52 games.

    In the 43rd round of the 1993 amateur free agent draft 18-year-old Carey Schueler became the first woman selected by a major league team. On a lark, her father, White Sox general manager Ron Schueler picked her. She was not signed.

    In October 1988 the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown unveiled a permanent exhibit that honors the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League that operated from 1943-54.

    Media
    Major League Baseball opened its clubhouses to female reporters in 1970. The harassment was endless, including Dave Kingman mailing a live rat to one reporter. In 1979 Commissioner Bowie Kuhn, continuing his controversial rulings, threw the women out. Earlier, Mary Shane became the first woman employed on a daily basis to do play-by-play. She was hired by none other than Bill Veeck in 1977. In 2005 Suzyn Waldman with the Yankees became the first full-time female television commentator.

    Front Office
    Joan Payson, as 10% owner of the New York Giants, was the only stockholder to vote against the move to San Francisco. She was slated to become an owner in the aborted Continental League, William Shea’s brainchild. Shea was a New York attorney with long ties to the sporting industry that had been on a mission to bring a National League franchise back to the city after the Giants and Dodgers left in 1957. He brought in Branch Rickey to gain legitimacy for the league. The Continental League closed shop when it was assured that the majors would be expanding.

    Payson became majority owner of the expansion Mets in 1962. Though having little to do with day-to-day operations, she helped lure the popular Casey Stengel out of retirement to manage the club. In 1969 she became the first female owner to win the world championship. After Payson’s death in 1975, ownership eventually funneled to her daughter Lorinda de Roulet and granddaughters Bebe and Whitney de Roulet. The team was sold to interests headed by Nelson Doubleday in 1980.

    In 1981 Marge Schott became a minority owner in the Cincinnati Reds. Four years later, she gained a majority interest. It was a bumpy ride from there. Payson and Schott are the only two female majority owners that did not inherit their club.

    Jean Yawkey, Red Sox, Jackie Autry of California and Joan Kroc, Padres in 1984, inherited a major league team when their husbands passed away. Ms. Yawkey served as majority owner and general partner from 1976 until her death in ‘93. Later, Wendy Selig-Prieb took over the Brewers when her father assumed the role of commissioner. She took formal control of the team when it was set up in a trust when Bud Selig was officially announced as commissioner in 1998. Ridiculously, he had been acting in the capacity for six years.

    Lanny Moss became the first woman hired to run a team in organized baseball, doing so in Single-A in 1975. Kate Feeney and Phyllis Collins achieved high ranking positions in the National League in the 1990s.

    On the Field
    Heather Nabozny became head groundskeeper for the Tigers in 1999.

    Umpires
    Several women toiled in blue. Christine Wren oversaw games at the Rookie and Class-A levels from 1975-77. Bernice Gera began umpiring in the minors in the New York-Pennsylvania League in ‘69. Her contract was immediately rescinded by National Association president Phil Piton and she sued. Finally, Gera won her case and re-took the field on June 25, 1972 in Geneva, New York. On the field that day she made the cardinal mistake of reversing herself on a call. Gera quit after only one game admitting that she was “physically, mentally and financially drained.” She later accepted a front office job in the Mets organization. Theresa Cox umpired in the Double-A Southern League from 1988-92. Female umpire Ria Cortesio began in the minors in 1999 and is working her way up the system (later she was discharged). Shanna Kook found work in the minors from 2003-04.
    Last edited by Brian McKenna; 03-29-2008, 10:44 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • ipitch
    replied
    If women are banned from MLB now, I bet the ban would be quickly lifted if a MLB-caliber woman player came along.

    Leave a comment:

Ad Widget

Collapse
Working...
X