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  • #46
    Originally posted by abacab
    I saw that one, but I noticed that Alexander went 9-0 for the Tigers in '87. The Tigers ended up winning the division by two games, so Alexander was an essential pickup. On the other hand, he pitched two more lackluster years and then retired, and we all know what Smoltz has done. It's a tough call - maybe it's worth trading a can't-miss prospect if it's going to help you make the playoffs, because who knows when it'll happen again. The Tigers haven't made the postseason since.
    This is exactly why this trade is not considered a bust for Detroit. They were trying to win the Pennant and that was the only reason thy got Alexander. They got what they wanted, the Braves got what they wanted and everyone knew exactly what they were giving up.
    I signed with the Milwaukee Braves for three-thousand dollars. That bothered my dad at the time because he didn't have that kind of dough. But he eventually scraped it up.~Bob Uecker


    "While he had a total of forty home runs in his first two big-league seasons, it is unlikely that Aaron will break any records in this department." ~ Furman Bisher, Atlanta Journal and Constitution "journalist"

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by jpenrod
      This is exactly why this trade is not considered a bust for Detroit. They were trying to win the Pennant and that was the only reason thy got Alexander. They got what they wanted, the Braves got what they wanted and everyone knew exactly what they were giving up.
      Starting in '87
      Detroit - one postseason
      Atlanta - THIRTEEN postseasons (only because there was none in '94)
      You SURE Detroit knew what they were giving up?
      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by RuthMayBond
        Starting in '87
        Detroit - one postseason
        Atlanta - THIRTEEN postseasons (only because there was none in '94)
        You SURE Detroit knew what they were giving up?
        While the division win was nice, the fact the Tigers had over 100 losses only a couple seasons later wasn't so easy to take. There were high hopes for Smoltz, he was a Michigan product after all (the state of, not the university for those who can't seem to separate the two) and certainly would have helped some abysmal pitching staffs in subsequent years.
        It was a gamble that paid off in the short term, but it was a sign of the way the Tigers were moving, trying to find short term fixes for a team that built itself on their farm system to that point.
        I'd certainly consider trading the last division title for what was to become of the team in the 90's.
        Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
        Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
        Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
        Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
        Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by efin98
          Heathcliff Slocumb to Seatle for Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek.
          The move that was a key to Boston's success in the late 90's/early 2000's.

          Of course, the year before they'd made this gem:

          July 30, 1996: Traded by the Boston Red Sox to the Seattle Mariners for Darren Bragg.

          In his partial season in Boston, Moyer was 7-1 with a 4.50 ERA. Can't fault Boston's logic for wanting to "sell high".

          Of course, who knew Moyer would pitch another 9 seasons, winning 20 games twice?

          And Darren Bragg, well, he put up a couple mediocre, although not terrible, seasons in Boston before leaving as a FA.
          Visit my card site at Mike D's Baseball Card Page.

          Comment


          • #50
            Someone mentioned Curt Schilling to the Astros but so far no one has mentioned the really bad Curt Schilling trade and that is

            Pete Harnisch, Curt Schilling, and Steve Finley for drumroll please. . . .Glenn Davis.

            Glenn would play over 180 games over the next three seasons for Baltimore while Houston would of course screw up the trade. But still look at those names. 3 future all-stars for a washed up former average first basemen.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by RuthMayBond
              Starting in '87
              Detroit - one postseason
              Atlanta - THIRTEEN postseasons (only because there was none in '94)
              You SURE Detroit knew what they were giving up?

              As much as I like Smoltz, he is not solely responsible for the Braves success, nor was his trade solely responsible for the Tigers failures. Yes The tigers knew what they were giving up (or at least the potential they were giving up). If you take an honest look at those teams the tigers had through the 90's you would realize that having smoltz would have had little impact on their success, I think you would even have to admit that Smoltz would not have been as successful a pitcher had he stayed in Detroit.
              I signed with the Milwaukee Braves for three-thousand dollars. That bothered my dad at the time because he didn't have that kind of dough. But he eventually scraped it up.~Bob Uecker


              "While he had a total of forty home runs in his first two big-league seasons, it is unlikely that Aaron will break any records in this department." ~ Furman Bisher, Atlanta Journal and Constitution "journalist"

              Comment


              • #52
                I think Detroit would have been very happy to have Smoltz in the early 90's. There pitching staff was very weak and any quality arm would have helped.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Ubiquitous
                  I think Detroit would have been very happy to have Smoltz in the early 90's. There pitching staff was very weak and any quality arm would have helped.
                  I don't think there's a single Detroit fan who would disagree with you. Which makes it a bad trade.
                  Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                  Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                  Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                  Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                  Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by jpenrod
                    As much as I like Smoltz, he is not solely responsible for the Braves success, nor was his trade solely responsible for the Tigers failures..
                    Technically true but let's figure if without Smoltz the Braves would have made the playoffs in
                    1991,
                    1993,
                    2000,
                    2001,
                    OR 2005.
                    An expensive price to get trounced by the Twins in '87
                    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Ubiquitous
                      I think Detroit would have been very happy to have Smoltz in the early 90's. There pitching staff was very weak and any quality arm would have helped.
                      So having Smoltz would have made a difference? Look at how Smoltz performed 1990-1996 vs. the worst SP on the tigers that year. The best improvement comes in 1996 when Smoltz won the CY, and he would have provided only a 9 game improvement in the standings (assuming he would have had that year with the tigers). Remember in the early '90's Smoltz was still considered a lot of potential but not totally living up to it (Sports Psychologist anyone).

                      1990:
                      Smoltz 14-11
                      Replacement 5-12
                      Tigers 79-83, 9 GB

                      1991:
                      Smoltz 14-13
                      Replacement 12-14
                      Tigers 84-78, 7 GB

                      1992:
                      Smoltz 15-12
                      Replacement 7-14
                      Tigers 75-87, 21 GB

                      1993:
                      Smoltz 15-11
                      Replacement 11-9
                      Tigers 85-77, 10 GB

                      1994:
                      Smoltz 6-10
                      Replacement 4-5
                      Tigers 53-62, 18

                      1995:
                      Smoltz 12-7
                      Replacement 1-4
                      Tigers 60-84, 26 GB

                      1996:
                      Smoltz 24-8
                      Replacement 6-14
                      Tigers 53-109, 39 GB

                      The Bottom line is the Tigers had a lot more problems than Smoltz would have remedied, so you are telling me Tigers fans would trade the pennant in 1987 for Smoltz? why what is the return they get? I love Smoltz, but had the Tigers not traded him all they would have wound up with is one less pennant.

                      Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                      Technically true but let's figure if without Smoltz the Braves would have made the playoffs in
                      1991,
                      1993,
                      2000,
                      2001,
                      OR 2005.
                      An expensive price to get trounced by the Twins in '87
                      It is not so much about how the Braves would have done without Smoltz, but how the Tigers would have faired with him. Ultimately had the Tigers not traded him they would have (probably) not won their division in 1987, finished further back in 1988, and had a few more wins every year since, but still no pennants! Don't believe me? Instead of showing me how many pennants the Braves would not have without Smoltz, show me how many the Tigers would have won with him. combine that with the fact that had Smoltz stayed in Detroit and I would be willing to bet he would not have had the individual success he has had in ATL.
                      Last edited by jpenrod; 03-16-2006, 02:07 PM.
                      I signed with the Milwaukee Braves for three-thousand dollars. That bothered my dad at the time because he didn't have that kind of dough. But he eventually scraped it up.~Bob Uecker


                      "While he had a total of forty home runs in his first two big-league seasons, it is unlikely that Aaron will break any records in this department." ~ Furman Bisher, Atlanta Journal and Constitution "journalist"

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by jpenrod
                        So having Smoltz would have made a difference? Look at how Smoltz performed 1990-1996 vs. the worst SP on the tigers that year. The best improvement comes in 1996 when Smoltz won the CY, and he would have provided only a 9 game improvement in the standings (assuming he would have had that year with the tigers). Remember in the early '90's Smoltz was still considered a lot of potential but not totally living up to it (Sports Psychologist anyone).

                        1990:
                        Smoltz 14-11
                        Replacement 5-12
                        Tigers 79-83, 9 GB

                        1991:
                        Smoltz 14-13
                        Replacement 12-14
                        Tigers 84-78, 7 GB

                        Whats the point of basing this on win loss records of pitchers? Smoltz went 14-11 with the Braves that doesn't mean he would have gone 14-11 with the tigers. In 1991 he probably would have been the second or third best starter with the Tigers and he would have solidified a rotation that after the second starter was not all that hot or consistent. YOu had three starters with 30 or more starts and then you had 8 pitchers with 4 or more starts the rest of the way. The tigers finished 7 back, Smoltz would have helped a lot this year.

                        In 1993 when again they had a winning record Smoltz would have been their ace, their pitching staff was atrocious that year. On top of that he was a workhorse, pitching over 240 innings. He probably would have saved them something like 40 to 50 runs that year.
                        Smoltz starting in about 1992 would have been Detroits ace.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          In 1987 Doyle pitched great for the Tigers, no doubt about it. But what gets overlooked is that in those 11 games the Tigers averaged 5.82 runs per game. 7 of the 11 games they scored 5 or more runs. On top of that Toronto lost its last 7 games in a row, including 4 against Detroit.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Ubiquitous
                            Whats the point of basing this on win loss records of pitchers? Smoltz went 14-11 with the Braves that doesn't mean he would have gone 14-11 with the tigers. In 1991 he probably would have been the second or third best starter with the Tigers and he would have solidified a rotation that after the second starter was not all that hot or consistent. YOu had three starters with 30 or more starts and then you had 8 pitchers with 4 or more starts the rest of the way. The tigers finished 7 back, Smoltz would have helped a lot this year.

                            In 1993 when again they had a winning record Smoltz would have been their ace, their pitching staff was atrocious that year. On top of that he was a workhorse, pitching over 240 innings. He probably would have saved them something like 40 to 50 runs that year.
                            Smoltz starting in about 1992 would have been Detroits ace.
                            I agree there is no assurance Smoltz would have gone 14-11 with Detroit. You say that he would have been the the third best starter and I agree he would have been your third best starter (based on his statistics with Atlanta that year). but that still does not mean that it would have made a difference in how detroit finished. You ask why I looked at win losses? because a ultimately wins and losses decided where a team finishes. If you compare Atlantas Team Stats from 1991 to Detroits I think you will agree that Smoltz W-L would not be that different that year. You mention 1993 and the fact that smoltz would have been their ACE, okay I agree, but does that mean the Tigers would have made up 10 Games in the standings? I suppose your point may be that Smoltz would have won more games with detroit? What is your logic behind that? You talk as though Smoltz would be the second coming and he would have saved Detroit from themselves.

                            My only point is people here want to make it out as though the Braves sucess would have belonged to Detroit if they had not traded Smoltz and this is why they consider this a bad trade. There were other players involved in the Braves success. I just do not see that Smoltz makes as big a difference for Detroit as everyone here seems to think. I look at the statistics from the two teams and I just do not see it.
                            I signed with the Milwaukee Braves for three-thousand dollars. That bothered my dad at the time because he didn't have that kind of dough. But he eventually scraped it up.~Bob Uecker


                            "While he had a total of forty home runs in his first two big-league seasons, it is unlikely that Aaron will break any records in this department." ~ Furman Bisher, Atlanta Journal and Constitution "journalist"

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              I don't think he was the second coming but realize instead that the Tigers of the early 90's was a high offense-bad pitching team. Smoltz would have stuck out like a sore thumb on that team.

                              In 1993 like I said Smoltz probably would have saved them about 40 to 50 runs. It's conceivable that with those saved runs and improved match ups that the Tigers end up winning 90-92 wins, and then it comes down to where the Tigers get those 5 to 7 extra wins. They went 6-7 against Toronto that year. Their "ace", their opening day starter was Mike Moore. He had a 5.22 ERA and he still went 13-9, a testament to offensive strengths of their team.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Charlie Leibrant, Steve Avery, Mike Bielecki, Pete Smith, Pedro Borbon, Denny Neagle, John Burkett, Damian Moss, Jarrett Wright, Tom Glavine. What do all of these guys have in common? they are pitchers that had career year in ATL, left, saw an immediate increas in ERA and decline in success, many have never been able to duplicate the success they had in Atlanta. This is the last I am going to say about the Smoltz trade, I have seen too many pitchers have success in atlanta (some less than others) leave and never again come close to the same numbers they had under Leo Mazzone. I just do not think you can say Smoltz would have been as successful away from Atlanta as some people think. Everyone says this is a lopsided trade because of the success Smoltz has had in Atlanta, I just do not believe Smoltz would have matched his own success in Detroit, thereby being even less of an impact than you think.

                                When the trade was made the Tigers wanted immediate help, they got it. Had they not made the trade, there is no promise they would have won the pennant in '87 and even if Smoltz had matched the production he has had in Atlanta (which I doubt) there is no promise it would have made any difference in any of the Tigers Subsequent seasons.
                                I signed with the Milwaukee Braves for three-thousand dollars. That bothered my dad at the time because he didn't have that kind of dough. But he eventually scraped it up.~Bob Uecker


                                "While he had a total of forty home runs in his first two big-league seasons, it is unlikely that Aaron will break any records in this department." ~ Furman Bisher, Atlanta Journal and Constitution "journalist"

                                Comment

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