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  • #61
    On May 29, 1971, the San Francisco Giants traded a young George Foster to the Cincinnati Reds, primarily for shortstop Frank Duffy (journeyman minor leaguer Vern Gieshert was also part of the deal). It took George a couple of years to develop fully, but he finished his career with a .274 average and 348 homeruns, along with two MVP Awards.

    Frank Duffy, expected to be a decent ballplayer, managed to stick around for ten seasons and hit .232 for his career with little power (26 career HRs). He was a starter for the Indians for six seasons. Heck, the Giants only had Duffy for 21 games. At the end of the 1971 season the Giants pulled another huge boner: They traded Duffy (no - that wasn't the boner ) to the Cleveland Indians - along with their mound ace, Gaylord Perry, for Sudden Sam McDowell. Now a few years earlier, this might have been a good trade. A young, healthy Sam with his tremendous fastball (that could rival any pitcher, any era) might have really flourished in San Francisco with a winning team and a splendid offense. But this was a Sam who had destroyed himself with booze. Sam would win a total of 11 games for the Giants in one and part of a second season. Perry, who was four years older than Sudden Sam, pitched 12 more seasons (3 1/2 for the Indians) and won 180 more games including two Cy Young Awards (one for the Indians following the trade).

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    • #62
      Originally posted by jpenrod
      Charlie Leibrant, Steve Avery, Mike Bielecki, Pete Smith, Pedro Borbon, Denny Neagle, John Burkett, Damian Moss, Jarrett Wright, Tom Glavine. What do all of these guys have in common? they are pitchers that had career year in ATL, left, saw an immediate increas in ERA and decline in success, many have never been able to duplicate the success they had in Atlanta. This is the last I am going to say about the Smoltz trade, I have seen too many pitchers have success in atlanta (some less than others) leave and never again come close to the same numbers they had under Leo Mazzone. I just do not think you can say Smoltz would have been as successful away from Atlanta as some people think. Everyone says this is a lopsided trade because of the success Smoltz has had in Atlanta, I just do not believe Smoltz would have matched his own success in Detroit, thereby being even less of an impact than you think.

      When the trade was made the Tigers wanted immediate help, they got it. Had they not made the trade, there is no promise they would have won the pennant in '87 and even if Smoltz had matched the production he has had in Atlanta (which I doubt) there is no promise it would have made any difference in any of the Tigers Subsequent seasons.

      You're absolutely right. Until 1996, Smoltz, while very good, wasn't stellar anyhow. And let me be the first to point out that if you're going 15-11 or so with a team that wins 100 games, you're probably not going to do a whole lot better with a team that loses 100. I cannot see how Smoltz would have- in any significant way- eased Detroit's woes. Alexander DID, and say what you like about run support- Doyle threw three shutouts in his 11 starts and won two more games by one run- he was pitching his heart out, posting his first win on AUGUST 20th and winning number 9 on October 2nd- that is clutch pitching, my friends.
      "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

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      • #63
        Sorry to double post, but been doing some digging- as to Alexander's two no-decisions that fall- on September 27th he gave up one earned run in 10 and 2/3 innings in an eventual 13 inning win over the Blue Jays, cutting their lead to 2.5 games. I seriously don't think he was relying on his teams runs to win games. Actually, I can't find his other no-decision; too hung over to search deep- anyone else?
        "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Buzzaldrin
          Amos Rusie for Christy Mathewson. Rusie won exactly zero games and lost one for Cincinnati; Mathewson won 372 for New York.

          I have to agree, Pedro may be a better pitcher in the stat and sabermetrics department, but Big Six brought Pennants and World Series' with him

          Rusie was a P with a dead arm...just wow

          The 2 that hurt hardest for me as a Philly Phan though are

          Pete ALexand and Bill Killefer (a great team leader Catcher) to the Cards for Mike Predengast and the INFAMOUS PIckles Dillhoefer and 55k

          and of course the DeJesus trade

          Both Ivan DeJesus and Pickles Dillhoefer are inside jokes to Philly Phans that know the history of the franchise

          As for Schilling, he was not a dominant P with the Phils and was injured or pitched hurt as many seasons as he was healthy...like many other players he found greatness and team success when he escaped

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          • #65
            Yankees trade Fred McGriff, Mike Morgan, Dave Collins and cash for Dale Murray and Tom Dodd.

            Yankees incredibly give up Fred McGriff and a pitcher who would go on to play another 19 seasons for two guys that never did anything. On top of that they had to give Cash to the Blue Jays to do it.

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            • #66
              This isn't a trade but take a look at Brendan Donnelly's career path. The White Sox draft him out of college in 1992. They release him in under 12 months. The Cubs sign him, they release in under 12 months. The Red sign him and keep him in the minors for 4 years before releasing him. He plays for an Indy team where the DRays then purchase him from, they keep him for 3 months before releasing him. 6 days later the Pirates sign him, they release him a week later. The next day the Blue Jays sign him, they hold on to him for about 12 months then release him. 2 weeks later the Cubs sign him again and keep him for about 3 months. That offseason the Anaheim Angels pick him, he plays a year in the minors and then at the age of 30 reels off two or three pretty good seasons for the Angels in the bullpen. Meanwhile the Cubs the team that had him twice and the most recent before the Angels could have used this guy in more then one season since releasing him.

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              • #67
                As a Cleveland native and lifelong fan of the Tribe, I have many candidates. Go back to 1899 and the "syndicate" type ownership by the Robison brothers of both the St. Louis Cardinals (The "Yankees" of this example) & the Cleveland Spiders (the "Kansas City Athletics" of the example). the Robisons gutted the Spiders, taking all of the top talent to St Louis and leaving the Cleveland team to finish with the worst record ever compiled at 20-134. Not surprisingly the Spiders were then also ousted from the NL in the 1899 contraction. Perhaps these werent real "trades" per se, but it was still an abomination that this could have ever happened. In the early 1900's, when Ty Cobb was having all his problems with his teammates, a trade was almost made with Cleveland, Cobb for Elmer Flick, straight up. Wish that one had taken place, it probably would have given us the 1908 flag over the Tigers at the very least. In later years, Bill Veeck almost traded Lou Boudreau away, pulling back from that when the fans just about rioted, threatened a boycott etc. & he saw what severe damage he would be doing to his investment in the club. You'd think Trader Frank Lane would've learned from that, but no, about 12 years later, in the most damaging deal ever made by the Indians; he made the infamous Colavito for Kuenn swap with Detroit that almost killed the franchise permanently. And I will add one more from the Gabe Paul era. Gabe served 2 terms of office as Tribe President, sandwiched around a term with the Yankees. No one can prove this, but almost everyone in town believed that, knowing he was Bronx bound, he traded Graig Nettles & Jerry Moses to the Bombers for John Ellis, Jerry Kenney, Charlie Spikes and Rusty Torres. Cant prove he knew it, but whether he did or not, it was a terrible deal for the Tribe. Nettles starred for years while all the other principles were soon gone with minimal impact.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Calif_Eagle
                  You'd think Trader Frank Lane would've learned from that, but no, about 12 years later, in the most damaging deal ever made by the Indians; he made the infamous Colavito for Kuenn swap with Detroit that almost killed the franchise permanently.
                  The Colavito/Kuenn trade seemed like a good idea on the surface, though. In 1959, the Indians had four men with over 20 homers (Colavito, Held, Minoso, and Francona) and Kuenn had not only won the batting title at .353, he'd only once in an 8 year career hit below .300. Seemed logical to trade some power for that kind of get-on-basemanship. (Francona in fact had had the best year in 59, outhitting Kuenn by ten points and topping 20 homers, but failing to appear enough to qualify for the batting title).

                  Colavito only had 4 really good years left in him (I don't count 1966, when he hit 30 homers but only drove in 72 runs- how on earth do you do that?). Kuenn did break .300 in his one year with the Tribe before being traded to SF for Antonelli and Kirkland, who did Cleveland no good whatsoever- that was the trade that really misfired.

                  While the Rocky Harvey trade certainly wasn't a winner for Cleveland, I don't really think it ranks as one of the worst all-time.
                  "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    So if it were to go team by team we have?

                    Red Sox: Jeff Bagwell to the Astros
                    Mariners: Varitek/Lowe for Slocumb
                    Dodgers: Pedro Martinez to the Expos
                    A's: Mark McGwire to the Cards
                    Phillies: Alexander to the Cubs
                    White Sox: Sammy Sosa to the Cubs
                    DRay's: Trading Bobby Abreu to the Phillies
                    DBacks: Trade Lyle Overbay, Chad Moeller, Chris Capuano, Junior Spivey, Craig Counsell, De La Rossa for 23 games of Richie Sexson.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Included with the Ruth "transaction" were a series of, maybe not the worst trades ever... but all together? Crap City.

                      1919: Carl Mays to the Yankees for pitchers Bob McGraw, Allen Russell and $40,000.
                      Mays went 79-39 in his tenure with the Yanks... McGraw 0-2 with the Sox, Russell 28-28

                      1921: Bullet Joe Bush, Everett Scott, and Sad Sam Jones in exchange for Roger Peckinpaugh, Jack Quinn, Rip Collins, and Bill Piercy and $50,000.
                      Bush went 45-22 with the Yanks, Scott 1698 AB's .254 BA (and some decent defence), Jones 67-56... Peckinpaugh never played for the Sox, Quinn went 45-54, Collins 14-11 and Piercy 11-26

                      1923: Herb Pennock to New York in exchange for Norm McMillan, George Murray, Camp Skinner and $50,000.
                      Pennock went 162-90 for the Yanks... McMillan 459 AB's .253 BA, Murray went 9-20 and Skinner had 13 AB's and a .231 BA
                      "(Van) Mungo and I get along fine. I just tell him I won't stand for no nonsense, and then I duck."
                      Casey Stengel

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Eastvanmungo
                        Included with the Ruth "transaction" were a series of, maybe not the worst trades ever... but all together? Crap City.

                        1919: Carl Mays to the Yankees for pitchers Bob McGraw, Allen Russell and $40,000.
                        Mays went 79-39 in his tenure with the Yanks... McGraw 0-2 with the Sox, Russell 28-28

                        1921: Bullet Joe Bush, Everett Scott, and Sad Sam Jones in exchange for Roger Peckinpaugh, Jack Quinn, Rip Collins, and Bill Piercy and $50,000.
                        Bush went 45-22 with the Yanks, Scott 1698 AB's .254 BA (and some decent defence), Jones 67-56... Peckinpaugh never played for the Sox, Quinn went 45-54, Collins 14-11 and Piercy 11-26

                        1923: Herb Pennock to New York in exchange for Norm McMillan, George Murray, Camp Skinner and $50,000.
                        Pennock went 162-90 for the Yanks... McMillan 459 AB's .253 BA, Murray went 9-20 and Skinner had 13 AB's and a .231 BA

                        The second one wasn't a bad trade at all- what was bad was what the Sox did AFTER the trade. Quinn pitched three years with Boston, but lasted another ten in the majors- with his ERA+ always above 100 until 1933 when he was 49. The Sox, though, put him on waivers in 25. Peckinpaugh was lost to the Sox as part of a three team trade that got them Joe Dugan- who they promptly sent to the Yankees. I feel that the 1925 MVP could have definitely helped Boston's fortunes, although they still would've come in last most years. I think the Scott for Peckinpaugh part of the deal makes perfect sense from the Sox point of view.
                        "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          --Shouldn't Peckinpaugh be in the conversation when we talk about worst MVPs?

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            I guess no one's mentioned this one, but it's right up there:

                            Seeking an established SS to solidify an expansion Devil Rays squad, on November 18, 1997 Chuck LeMar traded for Kevin Stocker from the Philadelphia Phillies for Bobby Abreu :ooo:

                            Stocker went on to play 2 1/2 nondescript season for TB before fading into obscurity.
                            Last edited by Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan; 08-19-2009, 04:18 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Iron Jaw View Post
                              On May 29, 1971, the San Francisco Giants traded a young George Foster to the Cincinnati Reds, primarily for shortstop Frank Duffy (journeyman minor leaguer Vern Gieshert was also part of the deal). It took George a couple of years to develop fully, but he finished his career with a .274 average and 348 homeruns, along with two MVP Awards.

                              Frank Duffy, expected to be a decent ballplayer, managed to stick around for ten seasons and hit .232 for his career with little power (26 career HRs). He was a starter for the Indians for six seasons. Heck, the Giants only had Duffy for 21 games. At the end of the 1971 season the Giants pulled another huge boner: They traded Duffy (no - that wasn't the boner ) to the Cleveland Indians - along with their mound ace, Gaylord Perry, for Sudden Sam McDowell. Now a few years earlier, this might have been a good trade. A young, healthy Sam with his tremendous fastball (that could rival any pitcher, any era) might have really flourished in San Francisco with a winning team and a splendid offense. But this was a Sam who had destroyed himself with booze. Sam would win a total of 11 games for the Giants in one and part of a second season. Perry, who was four years older than Sudden Sam, pitched 12 more seasons (3 1/2 for the Indians) and won 180 more games including two Cy Young Awards (one for the Indians following the trade).
                              Note: Foster has one MVP trophy not two,

                              but look at these developments

                              1971 George Foster traded to Reds
                              1974 traded Bobby Bonds to Yankees
                              1975 Dave Kingman sold to the Mets
                              1975 traded Garry Maddox to Phillies
                              1976 let Gary Mathews go as a free agent

                              in 1977 Foster hit .320 and had 52 HR and was named MVP
                              in 1977 Bonds hit .264 with 37 HR
                              in 1977 Maddox hit .292 with 14 HR and won a gold glove
                              in 1977 Mathews hit .283 with 17 HR
                              in 1977 Kingman hit .221 with 20 HR

                              the 1977 Giants outfield had
                              a guy who hit .252 with 13 HR, a guy who hit .285 with 7 HR and a guy who hit .267 with 8 HR

                              in 1979 Kingman hit .288 with 48 HR
                              in 1979 Foster hit .302 with 30 HR (although he missed 40 games)
                              in 1979 Mathews hit .304 with 27 HR
                              in 1979 Bonds hit .275 with 25 HR
                              in 1979 Maddox hit .281 with 14 HR and won a gold glove

                              in 1979 the Giants outfield had
                              a guy who hit .287 with 5 HR, a guy who hit .259 with 5 HR and a guy who hit .273 with 26 HR
                              1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                              2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
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                              • #75
                                Another bad trade:

                                On August 3, 1960, the Cleveland Indians sent their manager,Joe Gordon, to Detroit in exchange for Tiger manager Jimmie Dykes.

                                Both sides lost: each team had a worse winning percentage after August 3 than they did before that date.

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