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  • #76
    Here in Cincy we know it as an "old 30" Frank Robinson for trivia question answer Milt Pappas.

    G Man

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    • #77
      More than year later I'm still saying the Johan Santana for Carlos Gomez and carry ons is the worst deal the Twins have ever done. I'd rather have lost him to free agency, Twins would have at least won the division last year and they would have gotten a few draft picks.

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      • #78
        Quick addition: In 1988 Twins traded popular Tom Brunansky after coming off the World Series win for Tom Herr who Twins played in the WS. Herr hated it here and played average to below average in 1988 and left. Bruno was big part of the heart and soul of that loose Twins group.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by gman5431 View Post
          Here in Cincy we know it as an "old 30" Frank Robinson for trivia question answer Milt Pappas.

          G Man
          Well, the Orioles certainly appreciated the trade.

          Frank played six seasons in Baltimore and was in the World Series 4 times during those 6 seasons. One, 1970, against the Reds.

          In the long run, the trade helped Baltimore and didn't overly hurt the Reds. Milt Pappas played only 2.2 seasons as a Red before they shipped him to Atlanta for Tony Cloninger, Woody Woodward and Clay Carroll. The latter in that trade became a premier relief pitcher for the Reds who definitely helped them during their pennant winning years from 1970-76, where the Reds would be in the World Series 4 times (along with one additional division title).

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          • #80
            Carlton and Joe Morgan

            Originally posted by STLCards2 View Post
            Steve Carlton for Rick Wise. The Cardinals would have made several World Series in the 1970's if they didn't trade away Carlton.
            Even if they held on to Carlton, I don't know if the Cards would have made several WS in the 70's, but 1973 and 1974 are definite possibilities. Although, their chances after that would have been enhanced if they held on to Lefty and if this trade I am going to mention didn't happen:

            November 29, 1971: Astros trade 2B Joe Morgan, P Jack Billingham,
            SS Denis Menke, OF Cesar Geronimo and OF Ed Armbrister to Cincinnati for 1B Lee May, IF Tommy Helms and IF Jimmy Stewart.

            The Astros basically just gave the Reds three more pennants and four more division titles with that one. Take that trade away, and the Pirates would have went back to the WS in 1972, and may have repeated(they should have at least went back to the WS anyway).

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            • #81
              Originally posted by PACrdfn View Post
              Even if they held on to Carlton, I don't know if the Cards would have made several WS in the 70's, but 1973 and 1974 are definite possibilities. Although, their chances after that would have been enhanced if they held on to Lefty and if this trade I am going to mention didn't happen:

              November 29, 1971: Astros trade 2B Joe Morgan, P Jack Billingham,
              SS Denis Menke, OF Cesar Geronimo and OF Ed Armbrister to Cincinnati for 1B Lee May, IF Tommy Helms and IF Jimmy Stewart.

              The Astros basically just gave the Reds three more pennants and four more division titles with that one. Take that trade away, and the Pirates would have went back to the WS in 1972, and may have repeated(they should have at least went back to the WS anyway).
              Well, they did win the pennant in 1970 (102 wins) with big Lee May at first and Tommy Helms at 2b. Lee was good for over 30-39 HR's in Cincy - which equates to the 20-29 with Houston, playing 81 games in the dome. Tommy Helms was an excellent infielder and decent singles hitter for most of his career - and he had three solid seasons in Houston before injuries whittled away his career. The Reds would have probably kept Hal McRae to play the outfield with Rose and Tolan. Hal didn't have the arm and glove of Geronimo (Hal was a convert from the infield meaning he may have wound up back at 2b) but he was a much better hitter. Geronimo never got much of a chance to play in Houston except as a defensive replacement as Wynn, Cedeno and Watson were roaming the pasture.

              Deniis Menke played 3b for the Reds. If Lee May had remained in Cincinnati in the 70's, Tony Perez would have spent the decade at 3b, which he played fairly decently at from 1967-71.

              Hard to say. The Reds won the Pennant and whooped on the Pirates in the the 1970 NLCS. In 1971, they lost their ace pitcher from 1970, Jim Merritt who would never really recover, and another young pitcher named Wayne Simpson, who never really regained form. So Billingham was a key starter, as Gary Nolan and young Don Gullett were on-again off-again injury wise. Perhaps if they hadn't picked up Billingham they would have accelerated the careers of a couple of their youngsters like Milt Wilcox.

              The 1971 Reds slumped due to the loss of a couple of their starting pitchers, plus they had some major slumps at the plate and a terrible injury to their all-star centerfielder. Johnny Bench struggled with a .238 average. Their golden boy rookie of 1970, Bernie Carbo slumped miserably. Their star centerfielder, Bobby Tolan missed the entire season (he had a decent year in 1972, but was never able to regain 100 % form). George Foster came over from the Giants in a trade for Frank Duffy:ooo:, but he played like a rookie and wouldn't be substantial until the second half of the 1974 season.

              The Reds had some talent in their minor league system as well.

              I think they would have done okay without the trade.

              How about the Astros. How would the 1970's have looked if they kept Morgan, Menke, Billingham and Geronimo? They had a decent team in 1972.

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              • #82
                In 1971, they lost their ace pitcher from 1970, Jim Merritt

                your post was an excellent summary but I would never refer to Jim Merritt as an ace. 20 game wins notwithstanding, his ERA and hits to IP ratio was awful

                what does that make 1973 Ron Bryant? an all-timer?
                1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                Comment


                • #83
                  Clay Carroll. The latter in that trade became a premier relief pitcher for the Reds who definitely helped them during their pennant winning years from 1970-76, where the Reds would be in the World Series 4 times (along with one additional division title).

                  Clay Carroll was not a member of the 1976 Reds

                  a decent relief pitcher is no trade-off for a Hall oF Fame outfielder who won triple crowns

                  the Reds got smoked in the Pappas-Robinson trade

                  and you could add the wins that Doyle Alexander got for the O's after they acquired him from the Dodgers for Robby, including his contributions to two division champions
                  Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 08-20-2009, 05:43 PM.
                  1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                  2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                  3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Iron Jaw View Post
                    Well, the Orioles certainly appreciated the trade.

                    Frank played six seasons in Baltimore and was in the World Series 4 times during those 6 seasons. One, 1970, against the Reds.

                    In the long run, the trade helped Baltimore and didn't overly hurt the Reds. Milt Pappas played only 2.2 seasons as a Red before they shipped him to Atlanta for Tony Cloninger, Woody Woodward and Clay Carroll. The latter in that trade became a premier relief pitcher for the Reds who definitely helped them during their pennant winning years from 1970-76, where the Reds would be in the World Series 4 times (along with one additional division title).
                    Saying that the trade didnt hurt the Reds is well, putting it pretty nicely. That would be like saying if my brother burned to death it didnt hurt me. Frank obviously was still at the pinnicle of his career and who knows how the Reds would have done with him ON their team - especially in 1970 as you pointed out because they met in the Classic.

                    G Man

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      twins trade

                      Originally posted by Kitty Kaat View Post
                      Quick addition: In 1988 Twins traded popular Tom Brunansky after coming off the World Series win for Tom Herr who Twins played in the WS. Herr hated it here and played average to below average in 1988 and left. Bruno was big part of the heart and soul of that loose Twins group.
                      I think the worst twins trade is the Craig Nettles trade after the 1969 season. Although they made the playoffs the next year, they only got half a season out of Titant and one and half out of journeyman Stan Williams. Keeping Nettles they could have a regular 3rd baseman for the next 10+ years.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Jay Buhner traded by the New York Yankees with a player to be named later and Rich Balabon (minors) to the Seattle Mariners for a player to be named later and Ken Phelps. The New York Yankees sent Troy Evers (minors) (October 12, 1988) to the Seattle Mariners to complete the trade.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          A young Cupid Childs traded by the Boston Reds to the Cleveland Spiders for Paul Radford and Cub Stricker (both were out of the game in 3-4 years).
                          Childs went of to post these NL numbers for the next 12 years as a 2B:
                          .302/.414/.380 - OPS+ 114

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            George Stone traded by the Boston Americans with cash to the St. Louis Browns for Jesse Burkett.

                            Stone became a 143 OPS+ OFer while Burkett gave Boston just 1 last year, batting .257.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                              In 1971, they lost their ace pitcher from 1970, Jim Merritt

                              your post was an excellent summary but I would never refer to Jim Merritt as an ace. 20 game wins notwithstanding, his ERA and hits to IP ratio was awful

                              what does that make 1973 Ron Bryant? an all-timer?
                              He was the second starter in the rotation that season, and the workhorse of the staff. He was, essentially, an "ace" because he consistently won and completed more starts than anyone. Gary Nolan was really their best pitcher, but he did spend an awful lot of time nursing injuries in his career, although in 1970 he was able to start 37 games. Merritt led the team in wins the previous season as well, when Nolan was out with injuries for much of the year.

                              When the 1970 World Series rolled around, Merritt was not healthy. Ace or not, they had a very difficult time replacing him. They finally let him start a game and he was blown out.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                                [B]]

                                Clay Carroll was not a member of the 1976 Reds
                                Clay was with the Reds from 1968-75 and was one of their prime relief pitchers during that period - and with the regular injuries to the starting staff, all of the relief staff was very important. The Reds won 4 pennants from 1970-76 and one additional division title. Clay was on the team for 3 of those World Series trips and the division title.

                                My point about the Reds from 1970-76 was more about the Reds not hurting themselves with the trade. Stupid trade - no doubt. But the Reds would not have won the pennant from 1966-69 with or without Frank Robinson. They just did not have the pitching, primarily because of constant injuries to the staff. The Red ace, Jim Maloney was injured in 1969. Youngster like Gary Nolan and Mel Queen showed great promise when they joined the rotation in 1967, but Nolan became injury prone and Queen never really recovered from his 1968 injury. They dabbled and dealt. Throwing in pitcher such as George Culver, Jerry Arrigo and washed up Tony Cloninger into the rotation. In the 70's, they had the combo of sufficient starting pitchers along with excellent relief pitching.

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