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  • #91
    Originally posted by Iron Jaw View Post
    He was the second starter in the rotation that season, and the workhorse of the staff. He was, essentially, an "ace" because he consistently won and completed more starts than anyone. Gary Nolan was really their best pitcher, but he did spend an awful lot of time nursing injuries in his career, although in 1970 he was able to start 37 games. Merritt led the team in wins the previous season as well, when Nolan was out with injuries for much of the year.

    When the 1970 World Series rolled around, Merritt was not healthy. Ace or not, they had a very difficult time replacing him. They finally let him start a game and he was blown out.
    Merritt's rank on the Reds 1970
    most Wins 1st
    most Losses 1st
    lowest ERA among top 5 starters 5th
    game started 2nd
    complete games 1st
    shutouts tied 4th
    innings pitched 2nd
    most hits allowed 1st
    most runs allowed 1st
    most earned runs allowed 1st
    most home runs allowed 2nd
    fewest BBs allowed among starters 1st
    most strikeouts 2nd
    lowest WHIP among starters 3rd of 5

    I do not see anything remotely resembling an ace

    injuries always hurt a pitching staff, that does not convert someone into an ace
    1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
    2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
    3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by gman5431 View Post
      Saying that the trade didnt hurt the Reds is well, putting it pretty nicely. That would be like saying if my brother burned to death it didnt hurt me. Frank obviously was still at the pinnicle of his career and who knows how the Reds would have done with him ON their team - especially in 1970 as you pointed out because they met in the Classic.

      G Man
      I often wonder how the Orioles would have done if they had not made the trade.

      The 1966 Orioles had injuries to their starting rotation, primarily their ace, Steve Barber and could have used a Pappas.

      But -would their hitting have been substantial enough without a triple crown winner?

      The outfield would have been Blefary, with Blair and Snyder holding down full-time roles instead of platooning.

      Then again, the Orioles were biting at the top for much of the 60's. Frank was that key that finally got them over the top.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Iron Jaw View Post
        Clay was with the Reds from 1968-75 and was one of their prime relief pitchers during that period - and with the regular injuries to the starting staff, all of the relief staff was very important. The Reds won 4 pennants from 1970-76 and one additional division title. Clay was on the team for 3 of those World Series trips and the division title.

        My point about the Reds from 1970-76 was more about the Reds not hurting themselves with the trade. Stupid trade - no doubt. But the Reds would not have won the pennant from 1966-69 with or without Frank Robinson. They just did not have the pitching, primarily because of constant injuries to the staff. The Red ace, Jim Maloney was injured in 1969. Youngster like Gary Nolan and Mel Queen showed great promise when they joined the rotation in 1967, but Nolan became injury prone and Queen never really recovered from his 1968 injury. They dabbled and dealt. Throwing in pitcher such as George Culver, Jerry Arrigo and washed up Tony Cloninger into the rotation. In the 70's, they had the combo of sufficient starting pitchers along with excellent relief pitching.
        the point is

        Robinson and Alexander easily beat out Pappas and Carroll

        the Reds got fleeced
        1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
        2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
        3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
          Merritt's rank on the Reds 1970
          most Wins 1st
          most Losses 1st
          lowest ERA among top 5 starters 5th
          game started 2nd
          complete games 1st
          shutouts tied 4th
          innings pitched 2nd
          most hits allowed 1st
          most runs allowed 1st
          most earned runs allowed 1st
          most home runs allowed 2nd
          fewest BBs allowed among starters 1st
          most strikeouts 2nd
          lowest WHIP among starters 3rd of 5

          I do not see anything remotely resembling an ace

          injuries always hurt a pitching staff, that does not convert someone into an ace
          Who would you call their "ace" then? Or their "stopper." Nolan? Perhaps. Certainly not McGlothlin. Or Simpson who missed the last two months of the season. Or Cloninger.

          Jim was consistent. I would call him the ace of that staff, at the time. Stats are not everything. Without Merritt, I doubt the Reds would have been the 1970 NL Champ or winner of the West.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Iron Jaw View Post
            I often wonder how the Orioles would have done if they had not made the trade.

            The 1966 Orioles had injuries to their starting rotation, primarily their ace, Steve Barber and could have used a Pappas.

            But -would their hitting have been substantial enough without a triple crown winner?

            The outfield would have been Blefary, with Blair and Snyder holding down full-time roles instead of platooning.

            Then again, the Orioles were biting at the top for much of the 60's. Frank was that key that finally got them over the top.
            they probably would have won the pennant in 1964 had Powell not been injured and limited to barely 400 AB
            1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
            2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
            3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Iron Jaw View Post
              Who would you call their "ace" then? Or their "stopper." Nolan? Perhaps. Certainly not McGlothlin. Or Simpson who missed the last two months of the season. Or Cloninger.

              Jim was consistent. I would call him the ace of that staff, at the time.
              some staffs dont have aces or stoppers

              the 1970 Reds are a prime example
              1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
              2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
              3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

              Comment


              • #97
                For the worst trade in Tigers' history - worse than Doyle Alexander for John Smoltz and worse than Don Demeter for Jim Bunning...

                The Tigers acquired Aaron Robinson - your basic 33 year old backup catcher - for Billy Pierce. Oh, and the Tigers threw in $10,000 to even up the deal, I guess...

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                  Note: Foster has one MVP trophy not two,

                  but look at these developments

                  1971 George Foster traded to Reds
                  1974 traded Bobby Bonds to Yankees
                  1975 Dave Kingman sold to the Mets
                  1975 traded Garry Maddox to Phillies
                  1976 let Gary Mathews go as a free agent

                  in 1977 Foster hit .320 and had 52 HR and was named MVP
                  in 1977 Bonds hit .264 with 37 HR
                  in 1977 Maddox hit .292 with 14 HR and won a gold glove
                  in 1977 Mathews hit .283 with 17 HR
                  in 1977 Kingman hit .221 with 20 HR

                  the 1977 Giants outfield had
                  a guy who hit .252 with 13 HR, a guy who hit .285 with 7 HR and a guy who hit .267 with 8 HR

                  in 1979 Kingman hit .288 with 48 HR
                  in 1979 Foster hit .302 with 30 HR (although he missed 40 games)
                  in 1979 Mathews hit .304 with 27 HR
                  in 1979 Bonds hit .275 with 25 HR
                  in 1979 Maddox hit .281 with 14 HR and won a gold glove

                  in 1979 the Giants outfield had
                  a guy who hit .287 with 5 HR, a guy who hit .259 with 5 HR and a guy who hit .273 with 26 HR
                  You're not ...
                  COMPARING player statistics, are you?
                  Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                  Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                    some staffs dont have stoppers

                    the 1970 Reds are a prime example
                    If TWO guys with 84+ IP each, 16+ saves each and 2.66 ERAs or lower don't count
                    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                      [B]
                      and you could add the wins that Doyle Alexander got for the O's after they acquired him from the Dodgers for Robby, including his contributions to two division champions
                      Doyle never quite lived up to his potential as an Oriole. He was 42-43 overall in six seasons, doing much of his work as a spot-starter.

                      However, when the O's traded Doyle to the Yankees, they picked up Rick Dempsey, Scott McGregor, Tippy Martinez, Rudy May and Dave Pagan.

                      Some of those names would be very important in the Oriole pennants of 1979 and 1983.

                      Actually, I think trading Frank Robinson to the Dodgers hurt the Orioles in 1972. After breezing to three straight AL pennants, the Oriole regulars began to show signs of age in '72, and their hitting went out the door. They still had the "four aces" in McNally, Cuellar, Palmer and Dobson so they were not hurting at all for starting pitchers. They were in the '72 race despite anemic bats in the lineup. The addition of Frank Robinson might have gotten the Orioles into the ALCS again in 1972 as they finished only 4.5 games out. Frank also provided leadership to the players.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                        they probably would have won the pennant in 1964 had Powell not been injured and limited to barely 400 AB
                        Actually, Boog played in 134 games and had 424 AB's (506 PAs) - and hit 39 HRs.

                        Boog was playing leftfield that season. Norm Siebern was at first.

                        Boog's bat in the lineup for 162 might have given them the extra two games - though he wasn't exactly "fleet" in the outfield.

                        Comment


                        • DeJesus

                          1982: Phillies trade rookie Ryne Sandberg and veteran Larry Bowa to Cubs for Ivan DeJesus. Sandberg goes to Hall of Fame, DeJesus plays 3 years for Phils with OPS+ of 74, 84, and 77.

                          [I]The DeJesus trade is real head scratcher for me. DeJesus last season with the Cubs he was a triple "loser" (as opposed to triple crown winner) being last in HR, RBI, and batting average with enough AB to compete for the batting crown. In fact, he been the last guy to have this mythical, dubious award in MLB. [I]

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gee Walker View Post
                            For the worst trade in Tigers' history - worse than Doyle Alexander for John Smoltz and worse than Don Demeter for Jim Bunning...

                            The Tigers acquired Aaron Robinson - your basic 33 year old backup catcher - for Billy Pierce. Oh, and the Tigers threw in $10,000 to even up the deal, I guess...
                            And one of the worst trades in White Sox history took place in December, 1961, when they traded Pierce to the Giants for Bob Farley, Eddie Fisher, and Dom Zanni, the proverbial bag of balls. Pierce won 16 games for the Giants in 1962, and the White Sox finished 11 games out of 1st. place.
                            They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
                              And one of the worst trades in White Sox history took place in December, 1961, when they traded Pierce to the Giants for Bob Farley, Eddie Fisher, and Dom Zanni, the proverbial bag of balls. Pierce won 16 games for the Giants in 1962, and the White Sox finished 11 games out of 1st. place.
                              Eddie Fisher was never the same after he divorced Elizabeth Taylor.
                              Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                              Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                              Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                              Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                              Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                                Eddie Fisher was never the same after he divorced Elizabeth Taylor.
                                But he was a heck of a good relief pitcher...........who could also sing!

                                Comment

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