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Frank Selee: Greatest manager of all time?

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  • Frank Selee: Greatest manager of all time?

    What do you think? He certainly can make his case...
    "Hey Mr. McGraw! Can I pitch to-day?"

  • #2
    Tough one. He inherited a large chunk of an incredibly well stocked team with some of the best pitching in history (Nichols and Clarkson), but he made some of the smartest deals ever too- getting Billy Hamilton for Billy Nash and giving 3rd base to Jimmy Collins was a stroke of genius and brought Boston back from the second division, but I think even among 19th c managers, Comiskey was better since he spotted talent better than anyone and could truly create something out of nothing.
    "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Victory Faust View Post
      What do you think? He certainly can make his case...
      Why don't you make it? He's not in my top 30, I'll have to go back and check him
      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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      • #4
        I checked. He's a lot like McCarthy, he had years where he was arguably the best manager in his league (1892, 1893, 1904) but he also had several poor years. Overrated because he inherited excellent teams. But I guess the big thing is winning your league by no matter what method, rather than scrambling and doing an admirable job with little playing talent
        Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
        Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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        • #5
          When you can separate the Jockey from the horses then we can discuss who the great managers are.
          Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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          • #6
            Originally posted by KCGHOST View Post
            When you can separate the Jockey from the horses then we can discuss who the great managers are.
            I'd love to see your list :hyper:
            Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
            Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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            • #7
              Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
              Why don't you make it? He's not in my top 30, I'll have to go back and check him

              Well, he has the 4th-highest winning percentage of any manager, and he put together two of the greatest teams of all time. People usually associate him with the Beaneaters, but he also had a huge hand in putting together the great 06-10 Cubs teams.

              Between Boston and Chicago, the teams he put together won 9 pennants. And it wasn't like his teams were competing in eras where there weren't any other great teams -- his Beaneaters had the Orioles to contend with; and the Cubs had to fend off the Giants and Pirates.

              Illness forced Selee to step down early. But while he was active, he was the best. I don't think he gets enough credit.
              "Hey Mr. McGraw! Can I pitch to-day?"

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Victory Faust View Post
                Well, he has the 4th-highest winning percentage of any manager,
                See KCGhosts's comment

                <and he put together two of the greatest teams of all time.>

                Those being . . . ?

                <People usually associate him with the Beaneaters, but he also had a huge hand in putting together the great 06-10 Cubs teams.>

                I'd like to know how much

                <Between Boston and Chicago, the teams he put together won 9 pennants.>

                Not sure how you're calculating this
                Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
                  <and he put together two of the greatest teams of all time.>

                  Those being . . . ?

                  The 1890s Beaneaters and the 1900s Cubs.

                  While in Boston, Selee aqcuired Kid Nichols, Bobby Lowe, Vic Willis, Marty Bergen, Jimmy Collins, Fred Tenney, Billy Hamilton, Hugh Duffy and Chick Stahl, to name a few.

                  The notion that Selee inherited great teams is false -- he built great teams.



                  <People usually associate him with the Beaneaters, but he also had a huge hand in putting together the great 06-10 Cubs teams.>

                  I'd like to know how much

                  Well, he acquired Three Finger Brown, Harry Steinfeldt, and Ed Reulbach. He moved Frank Chance from being a platoon catcher to the starting 1B position. He moved Tinker and Evers to their respective positions.

                  If Selee hadn't gotten sick he would have been the manager for all those great Cubs teams of the early 20th Century -- and I'm certain he'd have been inducted into the HOF a lot sooner.



                  <Between Boston and Chicago, the teams he put together won 9 pennants.>

                  Not sure how you're calculating this

                  Boston Beaneaters: 5 pennants: 1891, 1892, 1893, 1897, 1898

                  Chicago Cubs: 4 pennants: 1906, 1907, 1908, 1910
                  "Hey Mr. McGraw! Can I pitch to-day?"

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Buzzaldrin View Post
                    Tough one. He inherited a large chunk of an incredibly well stocked team with some of the best pitching in history (Nichols and Clarkson),

                    He didn't inherit Nichols:

                    Charles Augustus Nichols (1869-1953) began his career in 1887 with his hometown Kansas City club in the Western League. After two years, Nichols landed with Omaha in the Western Association, managed by 29-year-old Frank Selee (already a keen judge of talent). Selee was hired as the Beaneaters’ manager the following year and proceeded to sign Nichols.

                    http://entertainment.howstuffworks.c...ichols-hof.htm
                    "Hey Mr. McGraw! Can I pitch to-day?"

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Victory Faust View Post
                      The 1890s Beaneaters and the 1900s Cubs.
                      Boston Beaneaters: 5 pennants: 1891, 1892, 1893, 1897, 1898
                      ok, so you're talking more dynasties than a particular year

                      <Chicago Cubs: 4 pennants: 1906, 1907, 1908, 1910>

                      OK, you're counting ones he would have managed
                      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
                        ok, so you're talking more dynasties than a particular year

                        <Chicago Cubs: 4 pennants: 1906, 1907, 1908, 1910>

                        OK, you're counting ones he would have managed
                        Architecture. Does it not count?
                        Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                        Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                        Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                          Architecture. Does it not count?
                          As long as we understand what we're counting
                          Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                          Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
                            As long as we understand what we're counting
                            That's what I said in the first place buddy: "The teams he put together won 9 pennants."

                            Selee is way underrated, IMO.
                            "Hey Mr. McGraw! Can I pitch to-day?"

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
                              As long as we understand what we're counting
                              Of course.

                              Not pointing to you on this (for a change ) but it is something you hear about all the time, how someone won with someone else's players. It just depends on how much credit Selee should get for setting the table that Chance very capably dined on.

                              Yes, managers do get more credit than they deserve for winning, but, for the purpose of this sort of thing, we are comparing apples to apples.
                              Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                              Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                              Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                              Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                              Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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