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Bonds vs. Griffey: 1990s only

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  • #16
    Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
    10 gold gloves in a decade where players were extremely athletic, and the competition for the award was very tough. I know, I'm making a lot of assumptions here, and I don't expect BBF to think the same way as the average baseball fan, but there is a way to argue it. Personally, I could name 25 center fielders better defensively than Griffey off the top of my head, assuming I don't time-machine the older players. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we're all wrong, and Griffey really was as good as all his Gold Gloves suggest. I don't see it, but I'm willing to concede that it's a possibility.
    Strikeouts aside, was Griffey's staff more fly ball or ground ball?

    On thing I have tended to find is that fielders responsible for extremely large outfields often get UNDER-rated in the metrics because a lot of their responsibility was to cut off gap hits and hold runners to singles. I have heard suggestions that holding runners by getting to hits of all types may account for MORE variation in outfielder value than catching fly balls. Griffey though was not particularly known as a fabulous gap hit cutter offer! Bonds, by the way WAS known for getting to balls quickly and holding runners to the minimum.

    Funny thing, had Griffey not fallen apart after '99 he might have tied the then record of 16 total gold gloves.

    Griffey's best 5 years give him about a 160 OPS+. I think Bonds was about 180 for 9 years from '90-'98.

    Intentional and semi-intentional walks could make a small difference (perhaps an equivalent of 5 OPS+ points if Bonds had 30 more effectively intentional walks than Griffey did per season).

    Centerfield is usually put at an equiv of 12-13 OPS+ points worth above corner outfield.

    If Griffey was as good a centerfielder as Bonds was a left fielder, and a comparable all around base runner, and we figure that Bonds steals were insignificant, and that Bonds had more IBB's, (and he may very well have had more infield hits as well-I remember him being quicker out of the box) then Griffey's 5 best are basically close to Bonds' entire 9 year peak. His next 4 are well below.

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    • #17
      Yeah, but try telling a Mariners fan this. They'll trot out Gold Gloves, batting average, home runs, and RBI. Presto! Griffey was better.
      "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

      - Alvin Dark

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      • #18
        Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
        But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we're all wrong, and Griffey really was as good as all his Gold Gloves suggest. I don't see it, but I'm willing to concede that it's a possibility.
        I love this humility.

        "Where there is an open mind, there will always be a frontier." -Charles F. Kettering

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        • #19
          Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
          A) Griffey deserved all his gold gloves and is possibly the greatest defensive center fielder ever.
          No where close to the greatest of all time. Very much overrated defensively. Plays one of the deepest centerfields around. Allowed him to get back on deep drives with time to make those Sportscenter highlight catches at the fence. I wonder why they didn't show all the singles that fell in safely in front of him.

          There has to be at least 50 CF'ers through the ages that are clearly superior to Junior defensively.

          Yankees Fan Since 1957

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          • #20
            Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
            Yeah, but try telling a Mariners fan this. They'll trot out Gold Gloves, batting average, home runs, and RBI. Presto! Griffey was better.
            But a Mariners fan who feels that junior was better than Bpnds in the 90's is not being objective.
            Besides the things you mention above, except for HR's are vastly overrated.

            Yankees Fan Since 1957

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            • #21
              best of the 1990s

              frank thomas
              ken griffey
              barroid bonds
              mike piazza
              jeff bagwell

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              • #22
                Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
                Maddux is amazing defensively. I have never seen a pitcher I thought was better. He was fantastic even last year, when he won his 17th. I can't say if he deserved all of them, but he deserved a lot.
                Exactly... if Maddux wasn't the best defensive pitcher one year, then he was probably top 3 where I can live with him having GG. Also he lost one year ('03) to Mike Hampton and the voters got that one right... Hampton was better that year. I bet out of the 17 years he won, at least 10 of them he won clearly and the other 7 he was so close that it didn't matter so might as well give it to him. Even last year, there might've been 1 or 2 pitchers who could've won that GG that I wouldn't have a problem, but I thought Maddux was the best out of those guys. Have anything found a better defensive season for a pitcher than Maddux in '96? That is probably the best defensive season for a pitcher ever.

                The thing I hate is where like Rollins won over Tulo or Lee winning over Pujols or Helton last year where they were CLEARLY better than the guys who won. You really don't have that with Maddux when he wins. Griffey is like Rollins and Lee... a couple of those GG might've been deserving, but the others not deserving.
                "Back before I injured my hip, I thought going to the gym was for wimps."
                Bo Jackson

                Actually, I think they were about the same because I lettered in all sports, and I was a two-time state decathlon champion.
                Bo Jackson

                My sophomore year I placed 2nd, and my junior and senior year - I got smart and piled up enough points between myself and second place where I didn't have to run the mile.
                Bo Jackson

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
                  Yeah, but try telling a Mariners fan this. They'll trot out Gold Gloves, batting average, home runs, and RBI. Presto! Griffey was better.
                  --I'm a Mariners fan. I don't think Griffey was close to Bonds in the 90s (and his injury plagued 2000s pale in comparison to Bonds even if you apply a massive steroid discount).

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by yanks0714 View Post
                    No where close to the greatest of all time. Very much overrated defensively. Plays one of the deepest centerfields around. Allowed him to get back on deep drives with time to make those Sportscenter highlight catches at the fence. I wonder why they didn't show all the singles that fell in safely in front of him.

                    There has to be at least 50 CF'ers through the ages that are clearly superior to Junior defensively.
                    Im no expert on griffey and wasnt around to see him catch in his prime, but you seem to think that because he played most of his career in a big park which allows him to make lots of highlight catches that he wouldnt be as good as someone playing elsewhere. Why wouldnt he have done just as well in a different park? Sure he might be overrated, but i think your at risk of underrating him because he played in a big outfield.

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                    • #25
                      Why is the title of this thread so hard to believe? As far as I'm concerned Bonds was clearly better than Griffey from 1990-1992. In 1993,Griffey really came into his own and could be considered the best in the game after Barry. From 1994 -1999,I believe Griffey was better than Bonds. Now after '99 Griffey fell and fell hard and Bonds discovered a magic substance that made him a superhuman hitter after his prime as a ballplayer. I will admit that I don't think much of sabremetrics. Most on here rely way too much on them. Don't get me wrong metrics are not all bad but some take them to the extreme,such as win shares and vorp,give me a break these have to be 2 of the worst stats ever thought of. To me stats are more of an outline of a players skill and value. You can learn a lot by actually watching the game(who knew!). The true and most precise way to evaluate players is by using both stats and your eyes and if you can't or could'nt watch a player listen to those who did see them.
                      As for Griffey being overrated defensively,How so? If all you have is that ESPN would show his amazing highlight catches then you don't have much. How about "Griffey played a deep CF and allowed a ton hits to fall in front of him",so what! I've seen Andruw Jones play hundreds of games,he has dropped easy fly balls more than a few times and since he plays shallow there have been numerous times I have seen balls hit over his head for doubles and triples. The fact that someone thinks Torri Hunter is a better centerfielder than Griffey is laughable. Griffey is not the best of all time in CF but he is surely in the top 2 or 3 of his era. I can only think of one time that he won a gold glove and did not deserve it and that was in 1995 when he missed over half the year.
                      I am so sick and tired of the Bonds hero worship and excusing or dismissing of steroid use during his 2001-2004 seasons that it is the main reason I would not even visit this site for months. HE USED STEROIDS! This is the only reason he is thought of as being the best of all time. On the otherside of the coin I believe there is a huge Griffey backlash on this site due to all the press and hype he recieved in the 90's. In my humble opinion he is grossly underrated on here.
                      I did not mean to hijack or derail this thread but everything a said was an attempt to show that Griffey could be considered the best of at least the second half of the 90's if you have the right perspective.
                      "I would walk through hell in a gasoline suit just to play baseball."-Pete Rose

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by bob View Post
                        Im no expert on griffey and wasnt around to see him catch in his prime, but you seem to think that because he played most of his career in a big park which allows him to make lots of highlight catches that he wouldnt be as good as someone playing elsewhere. Why wouldnt he have done just as well in a different park? Sure he might be overrated, but i think your at risk of underrating him because he played in a big outfield.
                        Griffey, Junior played a deep CF no matter what. He played deep everywhere, not just the Kingdome.

                        I like a CF'er who can play shallow enough to cut down on some of those singles while also being able to go back on deep drives.

                        The big park doesn't cut it. There were plenty of outstanding CF's who played shallow in big parks.

                        Griffey was overrated as a defensive CF'er and this thread topic is pikced off base. Bonds has an decided advantage over Griffey. Heck, the thread topic is making suppositions to try to get Griffey ahead of Bonds.

                        Yankees Fan Since 1957

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by swingman24 View Post
                          You can learn a lot by actually watching the game(who knew!).
                          Baseball can be watched? I'm pretty sure you're wrong...it's done in computer simulations and spits out the numbers which are used for box scores. You clearly don't know much about baseball.
                          "In the end it all comes down to talent. You can talk all you want about intangibles, I just don't know what that means. Talent makes winners, not intangibles. Can nice guys win? Sure, nice guys can win - if they're nice guys with a lot of talent. Nice guys with a little talent finish fourth and nice guys with no talent finish last." --Sandy Koufax

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                          • #28
                            Swingman24,

                            Just by screen name alone, I could imagine a more objective arbiter.

                            Here's the deal - you DO NOT watch more baseball than I do - GUARANTEED!

                            You can learn a lot by watching the game - absolutely. You can also be lead astray by the loudest screaming charlatans who dominates the discussions of baseball in the mainstream media. If you're not developing an independent filtration system, watch and absorb at your own risk.

                            Great insight on the flaws of WinShares and VORP, by the way - as if advanced metrics are some sort of monolith. On an individual talent/performance basis, Bonds dominate his sport in the nineties, he was without parallel. Griffey was a great, great player, and the media loved him, even if his actual personality and work ethic belied the prevalent image thereof. But, he was not in Barry's class - Bonds was in a league of his own, even before the controversy.
                            THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                            In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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                            • #29
                              Astros Fan,

                              If one considers the assumptions reasonable, then a case can probably be made. Personally, I don't though - so it is what it is...

                              One question though, what are you doing with those IBBs and non-intentional-intentional BBs? Are they just subtracted, or does Barry get his normal AVG/OBP/SLG added back to his totals for the balance of those PAs?

                              He can't just lose them altogether...
                              THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                              In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                digglahhh,I do not recall claiming to watch more baseball than you. Since you brought it up,how do you possibly know with certainty that you watch more baseball than I do? No one leads me astray. I am an adult,I can think for myself. Why do I have to have some long drawn out "insight" as to why some metrics are ridiculous. Bonds was not in a class by himself before he used steroids. Yeah,I said used steroids because that's what happened,not just a controversy. Now after 2000 if you take his numbers at face value than the only offensive force that can compare would be Ruth and Williams. By the way,I said in my post that I would probably sound a little biased but I can also observe players and check stats as well.
                                "I would walk through hell in a gasoline suit just to play baseball."-Pete Rose

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