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I was looking at the stats of some 19th century players, and was impressed, but a bit skepticical considering how different the game was back then. Im wondering how people on here rank guys like Ed Delahanty, Billy Hamilton, Dan Brouthers, Jesse Burkett, etc. Their stats would make them appear to be among the 20 or 30 best players ever, yet i seldom see them on listings of all time greats. I mean, Billy Hamilton averaged well over a run scored a game for his career! Who is generally considered the best of these guys? I see Nap Lajoie often on all time lists, and sometimes Wille Keeler, but they played mostly in the 20th century.
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Last edited by willshad; 04-05-2008, 10:36 AM. -
You see Keeler for that exact reason....because many draw the line at 1901. Lajoie also did most of his damage after 1901.
Ranking deadballers is like ranking anyone else...you take all the available information, and form an opinion. Sadly, many here would rather just ignore them.
Remember-
1871-NA started, but baseball was already going strong. Many stars from pre-1871 have claims as greats, and many others have more to contribute than what their NA stats say.
1876-NL started, but it was a different game. Shorter distance to the plate, batters calling high or low pitches that were delivered underhand or sidearm...a ball that first hits in fair territory is considered fair, even if it next hits in the dugout!
1882-AA starts with open competition to the NL, and an exciting brand of "renegade" baseball. Stolen bases, pitchers playing the field (and being star hitters)...all were features of this period. A lot of runs are scored, partly due to the offenses, but mostly due to BAD defenses.
1893-pitching mound moved back to 60'6". Offenses feast on helpless pitchers!
Particularly impressive to me are some of the pitchers who crossed over from the short rubber to the modern one...Cy Young and Kid Nichols being the best of this lot. I tend to draw the line at 1893 myself...but if you really want to look into it, there need be NO line...the information is all there, you just have to look for it, and put it to good use
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Does anyone here think Hamilton has a case as best leadoff hitter ever?Comment
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I share your concerns as to their rankings. I treat 2 pools of players - 19th Century players/Negro L. players-- by selecting 10 or each group, and arbitrarily inserting them into my Top 100 Players. That is my own person solution to these legitimate concerns.
Other member use 'shadow rankings'. They means to insert them into one's Top 10/Top 20/Top 100, but do not count them when totaling up scores.
Just 2 approaches to this thorny problem.Comment
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Can anyone make a list of who they consider the 10 best 19th century position players?Comment
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I think he has a case, probably the only one that can challenge Rickey Henderson. But I would give Rickey the edge. Henderson had a higher EqA despite a MUCH longer career. Other than Rickey, I think Hamilton is as good as any leadoff hitter ever, but as a 19th century guy, most baseball fans today don't give him his due....or have ever heard of him.Originally posted by willshad View PostComment
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I'll take a shot.Originally posted by willshad View Post
My Slate of Candidates For the Greatest Players of the 19th Century:
1. Buck Ewing - 1880-97, catcher, 1880-92, , IF, OF, 3B, 2B, P, NL manager, 1890, 1895-1900
In the spring of 1892, Buck threw out the muscle in his forearm, and was never again the great player he had been.
2. Adrian "Cap" Anson - 1871-97 - Great leadership qualities, great hitter, all time bat, only ave. glove. Top 3 in BA 9 times, led twice, Top 3 RBIs 14 times, led 8 times, top 3 OPS+ 4 times, Top 3 HR 4 times, Top 3 TB 3 times, led once, Top 3 hits 7 times, Top 3 Slugging 5 times, led league in Runs once, doubles twice, Walks once, on-base 4 times.
I think it is significant that he accumulated over 3,000 hits in an era when their seasons, for a long time, were less than 154 games.
1883 ------- 100 games
1884, 1885 - 115 games
1886, 1887 - 125 games
1887-1891 - 135 games
1892 ------ 154 games
1893-1897 - 135 games
Cap Anson - White Sox (1879-97). As a manager, he came in top 2 11 out of 13 yrs. Slugging 1Bman helped his own cause. From 1892-98, could hardly reach 4th.
Only racism mars his record with a big, black mark.
3. Herman Long, NL SS, 1889-1904, All time glove. Scored lots of runs in his peak, hit well 1894-97.
4. Bill Lange, 1893-1899, OF,
5. Ned Williamson, 3B/SS: 1878-1890
Played 8 seasons at 3rd, then 4 at SS, and finished with 52 g. at 3rd/21 at SS. Great glove, led league once each at doubles, HRs, Walks. In 1894, Reach Guide cited a 9 person poll, and James Hart, James O'Rourke and Arthur Irwin called Ned Williamson the games greatest player. He was also named in a 1938 article in Spalding Guide as one of the best ever 3Bmen.
Led his league's 3B/SS in assists 7 times, DPs 6 times, FA 4 times, POs twice.
6. Hughie Jennings, SS, 1B, 1891 - 1902; Detroit manager, 1907-20; Giants coach, 1921-25; Star defender, but weak arm. Played shallow field. During his peak, with Orioles, hit .335, .388, .401, .355. .328. Became lawyer, manager. Even with historical adjustment, he's impressive.
7. Ed Delahanty, 1888-1903; great hitter; Top 3 BA 6 times, led once; Top 3 Slugging 8 times, led 5; Top 3 HR 3 times, led twice; Top 3 RBI 6 times, led 3;
8. Dan Brouthers, 1B, 1879-1896, exc. 1890 Player's L., 1891, a L.
10. Willie Keeler, 1892-1910; Top 3 BA 5 times, led twice; Top 3 hits 8 times, led 3;
11. Mikael "King" Kelly, 1878-1893; Top 3 BA 4 times, led twice; Top 3 OPS+ 3 times, led once
12. Charlie Bennett, (catcher, 1878 - 1893)
Kid Nichols, "Charley Bennett was the best catcher during my time. He worked with me in Boston until he lost his legs in a railroad accident. He went through several seasons without having a passed ball. He never had an equal as a throw to bases." Bennett was the catcher of the world champion Detroit Team of 1887.
On January 12, 1894, at the age of 39, while still active as a ballplayer, he was run over by a train at Wellsville, KA, during a hunting trip, and had to have both his legs amputated. Detroit's ballpark was subsequently named after Charlie.
13. Jimmy McAleer, (OF, 1889-98, 01-02,07), (manager, 1901-11)
1. James R. McAleer's entry in the 1932 Official Baseball Guide. Here is an excerpt. "No outfielder has lived who could cover more ground than McAleer, and perhaps none who could cover as much back of him and to either side. He made sensational catches appear easy."
14. Martin Bergen, Red Sox catcher, 1896 - 1899, In 1898 Bergen was the best catcher in the National league, and his gingery work behind the bat did a great deal to win the pennant for the Boston team that season. in 1897 he caught in nearly all the championship games in first-class style.
Bergen was one of the greatest catchers that ever donned a mask. Possessed of an arm of steel, he snapped the ball around the infield like a shot, and was regarded as the equal of Buck Ewing in point of throwing ability. He was well-nigh perfect on foul flies, and a timely, reliable batsman.
On the night of January 19, 1900, at his home near North Brookfield, Mass., at the age of 28, Marty awoke and seized by an insane compulsion, murdered his wife, 2 small children, and himself.
15. Dummy Hoy, NL CF, 1888-1902, exc. 1890 Player's L., 1891, a L.
16. Jimmy Ryan, NL CF, 1885-1903; mostly Chicago Cubs,
In 1888, led league in hits, doubles, HRs, Slg. ave.; scored 1642 runs, 118 HRs, .306 career BA, .444 career Slg. ave., .374 onbase, Over 50 SB twice, 8 times over 100 R scored., 393 g in LF, 956 g in CF, 607 g in RF; Came in top 10 in slg. 6 times, in HRs 7 times.
Midway through his career, on August 6, 1893, at 6AM, while with his Chicago White Stockings (Cubs) team mates on a train, was horribly injured in a Lake Shore train crash. As late as January, 1894, he was uncertain as to whether he could resume his baseball career.
17. George Gore, 1876-1892, CF, In 1880, led L. in BA, Onbase, slg. ave.; Habitually in top 10 in R, W, OPS+, onbase, slg. 7 times over 100 R, led L. twice, led L. 3 times in Walks.Comment
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I think Hamilton was a good hitter, but would have stolen more like 500 in a modern setting.Originally posted by willshad View Post
We had a draft on the fantasy forum which is basically complete at this point and people did take some of the most outstanding 19th century players. It WAS based on 5 year peak.Comment
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Here were the rosters from that draft, again based on 5 year peak:
I think this was the order of 19th century players for 5 year peak:
Jennings
Delehanty
Dahlen
Connor
Ewing
Kelly
Barnes
And pitchers:
Nichols
ClarksonLast edited by brett; 04-05-2008, 05:59 PM.Comment
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--Its always seemed a little odd to me that virtually no one has any 19th century players ranked amoung the best of all time, but most of us have several players from just after the turn of the century ranked VERY high. Cobb and Wagner are generally top 5, Speaker top 10 and Collins top 20. We've never done any polling where a 19th century guy made the top 25.
--It isn't like there is some quantum leap in the evolution of the game at 1900. There really isn't any more logical reason to have a great divide between the 1890 and 1900s than there is the 1990s and 2000s. OTOH I have a hard time identifying anyone who played primarily in the 19th century who I could convincingly argue ranked with the very best of the 20th.Comment
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Top 10ish 19th Century Players
C: Buck Ewing, Deacon White
1B: Cap Anson, Dan Bro[thers, Roger Conner
2B: Ross Barnes (tremendous peak, but didn't last)
3B: Ezra Sutton
SS: George Wright, Dicky Pearce
LF: Ed Delahanty, Jesse Burkett, Jim O'Rourke
CF: Billy Hamilton, Paul Hines
RF: King Kelly, Sam Thompson
Utl: Cal McVey
--Bolded guys are my probably top 10. Maybe;
1) Anson
2) Delahanty
3) Brouthers
4) Ewing
5) Hamilton
6) Conner
7) Wright
8) Hines
9) Kelly
10) WhiteComment
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Unbelievable that Thompson, Delahanty, and Hamilton were all in the same outfield. They all batted over .400 one season, and Hamilton scored 192 runs. That has to be by far the best outfield ever.Comment
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Originally posted by leecemark View Post
what about Delahanty, Keeler, Brouthers, hamilton, and maybe even Thompson?Comment
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If you consider Cy Young 19th cent. player, I have him 2nd among pitchers and 13th among all players. Dan Brouthers is my top ranked 19th cent. position player, #20 out of all position players. Cap Anson is a close 21st.
So my top 19th cent. players :
1. Cy Young (13th overall)
2. Dan Brouthers (24)
3. Cap Anson (25)
4. Ed Delahanty (30)
5. Kid Nichols (36)
6. Roger Conner (49)
7. Tim Keefe (53)
8. John Clarkson (56)
9. Sam Thompson (59)
10. Jesse Burkett (62)
11. Ross Barnes (67)
12. Jim O'Rourke (74)
13. King Kelly (81)
14. Amos Rusie (83)
15. Billy Hamilton (93)
16. Al Spalding (94)
17. Harry Stovey (97)
18. Willie Keeler (102)
19. Charley Radbourn (107)
20. Pete Browning (112)Comment
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1-Ed Delahanty(24)
2-Dan Brouthers(32)
3-Cap Anson(34)
4-Billy Hamilton(36)
5-Roger Connor(54)
6-King Kelly(72)
7-Buck Ewing(73)
8-George Davis(74)
9-Jesse Burkett(77)
10-Hugh Jennings(81)
Pitchers
1-Cy Young(3)
2-Kid Nichols(19)
3-Pud Galvin(38)
4-John Clarkson(41)
5-Tim Keefe(42)
6-Amos Rusie(44)
7-Mickey Welch(60)
8-Hoss Radbourn(82)
9-John Ward (85)
10-Bob Caruthers (99)
Those are all from my top 100 (actual place).
Other guys making my top 25 positional lists:
Deacon White (C-15)
Charlie Bennett(C-19)
Cupid Childs(2B-14)
Bid McPhee(2B-15)
Jimmy Collins(3B-11)
John McGraw(3B-25)
Geroge Wright(SS-25)
Fred Clarke(LF-11)
Joe Kelley(LF-17)
Harry Stovey(LF-26)
Pete Browning(CF-14)
Hugh Duffy(CF-21)
George Van Haltren(CF-25)
Sam Thompson(RF-17)
Willie Keeler(RF-20)
Elmer Flick(RF-22)Comment
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