Better hitter at peak: Gehrig Or Thomas?

[fenrir]

Who do you think was a better hitter at their peak, Lou Gehrig or Frank Thomas?

[sturg1dj]

i just looked at the stats and I am going to say something that may not be so popular.

Even though overall Frank Thomas' career has been underrated he seems to be very overrated on this board.


and another thing I just realized...the 1994 strike season was a HUGE steroid season...wow!


and the last 4 people who seemed to have legitimate shots at the HR record.....Matt Williams 1994, Sosa-McGwire, and Bonds all were users.

[Colorado Express]

Gehrig was better IMO, but I'm basing some of that on the better hitting conditions for Thomas (smaller parks, the claim that balls traveled farther - you know, the general "hitter's era claim"). I do, however, think that Gehrig was helped more by those hitting around him.

[Minstrel]

Gehrig was better IMO, but I'm basing some of that on the better hitting conditions for Thomas (smaller parks, the claim that balls traveled farther - you know, the general "hitter's era claim"). I do, however, think that Gehrig was helped more by those hitting around him.

Weren't the 1920/30's also considered a "hitter's era?" An era of higher levels of offense? I'm not an expert on league qualities and environments, so I may be wrong, but that's what I recall.

[KCGHOST]

I think Gehrig's peak was longer and stronger.

[Gregory Pratt]

Batting averages were helped in the old days by poor excuses for gloves, but today's eras are certainly better for hitting.

[brett]

I was just thinking the other day that Thomas was maybe the first GREAT hitter between about 1969 and 1991 with the possible exception of Dick Allen. How many guys produced multiple seasons of .300, 20 home runs and 100 walks in that time period?

From '70-'90 hitters went for average or power. There were some power hitters who put up a couple of good averages in a couple of years, but fewer who also drew walks. In fact, I can only find 1 SEASON between '70 and '90 (Brett '85) where a guy hit .300, 30 home runs, 100 walks!

So I really view Thomas as the guy who went back to being the true high average slugger with patience.

Thomas' hitting peak was better than Foxx'. Gehrig's run environment was pretty high, I think a 4.4 league adjusted ERA, which may actually be higher than Thomas'

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Who do you think was a better hitter at their peak, Lou Gehrig or Frank Thomas?

Offensive PCA

THOMAS

Yr	PA	Wins	PCA-BA
1990	240	6.34	0.394
1991	700	16.00	0.372
1992	711	17.11	0.379
1993	676	14.93	0.367
1994	517	14.37	0.402
1995	647	13.71	0.362
1996	649	14.05	0.365
1997	649	17.65	0.399
1998	712	7.93	0.300
1999	590	6.49	0.299
2000	707	13.57	0.349
2001	79	0.48	0.269
2002	628	6.23	0.292
2003	662	9.94	0.324
2004	311	6.80	0.366
2005    124     -0.09   0.202

Thomas was always a DH playing first base...when he played 1B that is. He rates as the third worst defensive first baseman of all time using a minimum of 800 EqG at the position (below him are Ryan Klesko in the 2 spot and Dr. Strangeglove in the cellar). But offensively, Thoomas was equal in value to Barry Bonds until the moment when Bonds decided to use steroids at the same time that age was destroying Thomas slowly but surely. Thomas aged the way Bonds should have.

Thomas is the only designated hitter who I think can argue his way past Edgar Martinez on the career DH leaderboard. He deserves more admiration than he gets.

I don't have 2006 or 2007 figures yet...sorry about that...but Thomas did return to being above average with the bat when healthy, despite a decaying K/BB and BABIP.

GEHRIG

Yr	PA	Wins	PCA-BA
1923	29	0.74	0.389
1924	13	0.30	0.374
1925	497	5.02	0.293
1926	696	9.30	0.314
1927	717	16.60	0.374
1928	677	15.77	0.375
1929	692	11.69	0.335
1930	703	15.41	0.366
1931	738	14.49	0.352
1932	708	14.67	0.359
1933	687	10.04	0.321
1934	690	17.39	0.386
1935	672	16.63	0.384
1936	719	16.60	0.373
1937	700	15.09	0.364
1938	689	8.27	0.305
1939	33	-0.12	0.208

WINS

THOMAS-------GEHRIG

17.65----------17.39
17.11----------16.63
16.00----------16.60
14.93----------16.60
14.37----------15.77
14.05----------15.41
13.71----------15.09
13.57----------14.67

[brett]

So I checked. From '70-'90 inclusive, there were only 4 seasons total with a .300 average, 30 home runs and 100 walks:

Yaz: '70
Reggie Smith: '77
Brett: '85
Dwight Evans: '87

Actually from Mantle '64 (8th time) to Thomas beginning in '91 and doing it 7 times, no one had multiple .300/30/100 walk seasons. That's 27 years.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

So I checked. From '70-'90 inclusive, there were only 4 seasons total with a .300 average, 30 home runs and 100 walks:

Yaz: '70
Reggie Smith: '77
Brett: '85
Dwight Evans: '87

Actually from Mantle '64 (8th time) to Thomas beginning in '91 and doing it 7 times, no one had multiple .300/30/100 walk seasons. That's 27 years.

Brett,

Aren't you in the camp that sees batting average as highly over-rated? If so, what does it matter if the guy hit .300 or not, unless you were just throwing it out there as sorta "trivia" stuff. In the end, Thomas is barely a .300 career hitter. Seems strange saying that. There was a time when anything less than .320 would have sounded strange.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Brett,

Aren't you in the camp that sees batting average as highly over-rated? If so, what does it matter if the guy hit .300 or not, unless you were just throwing it out there as sorta "trivia" stuff. In the end, Thomas is barely a .300 career hitter. Seems strange saying that. There was a time when anything less than .320 would have sounded strange.

To this day I don't understand what happened to Frank Thomas in his 30s? How many truly historic hitters just collapse like Thomas did? I know some say it was the injuries. But I just don't buy that assertion. Sure, injuries were part of the problem but I don't think his injures alone can account for such a drastic decine.

Thomas thru age 32 (1530 G)
.321/.440/.579, 168 OPS+

Thomas after age 32 (732 G)
.263/.379/.519, 133 OPS+

The last 1/3 of Thomas' career really drag down his rate stats. He had a 57 point drop in BA, 61 point drop in OBP, and a 60 point drop in slugging percentage.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Sure, injuries were part of the problem but I don't think his injures alone can account for such a drastic decine.

Depends on what the injuries were and how he dealt with them psychologically. Could be a combo of things. Injuries, little gnagging ones or major ones. Loss of confidence in his ability. Certain pitchers found a weakness and word of it spread like wildfire across big league bullpens. Who knows. I have thought Thomas to be a clean player but wouldn't put it past anyone, including Eckstein.

[Proctor, CF]

As great as Thomas was, I don't see it anywhere near close. I vote for the Pride of the Yankees, Larrupin' Lou Gehrig - an RBI machine, and one of the very few men that ever lived that could make pitchers actually pitch to the Ace of Clubbers.

He won the MVP on the '27 Yankees, for God's sake. How can you out-peak that?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Depends on what the injuries were and how he dealt with them psychologically. Could be a combo of things. Injuries, little gnagging ones or major ones. Loss of confidence in his ability. Certain pitchers found a weakness and word of it spread like wildfire across big league bullpens. Who knows. I have thought Thomas to be a clean player but wouldn't put it past anyone, including Eckstein.

One thing I have read is that the strike zone changed for him and the umps started calling the outside strike on him. What I just find strange is that there is clear line where Thomas went from being a historic hitter to a decent hitter. And that line was after his age 32 season. It's unfortunate but true that no player is above suspicion when it comes to PEDs.

[rockin500]

One thing I have read is that the strike zone changed for him and the umps started calling the outside strike on him. What I just find strange is that there is clear line where Thomas went from being a historic hitter to a decent hitter. And that line was after his age 32 season. It's unfortunate but true that no player is above suspicion when it comes to PEDs.

i think it was the combination of the injuries and the zone changing on him a bit (he didnt make any friends with the umpires there in the middle of his career).

The foot injury really did take its toll on him though. He's had that foot/ankle problem throughout the latter half of his career. And it robbed him of signifant power and whatever speed he may have had early on.