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  • Bill Terry

    I apologize if there is a thread created about Bill Terry already, couldn't find it.

    I've been reading up on him a little bit, but I believe this is the best place where I can learn about him.

    He only played 13 seasons, but he's 10th all time in career batting average, his career batting average was .341 he also hit .401 during a full season in 1930, he was also an MVP during that 1930 season.

    He was also a decent manager he had 823 wins and 661 loses.

    Unfourtunately that's pretty much all I know from the top of my head. So can you guys tell me a bit more of William Terry.

    Bill Terry with Connie Mack in 1938 prior to an exhibition game at Lake Charles, Louisiana.


    Bill Terry looking at his ball, 1930.
    Image19.jpg

    ----1935

    Image8.jpg
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 05-16-2008, 05:32 PM.

  • #2
    Bill Terry's Relative Stats:

    -Rel.BA--Rel.Onbase---Rel.Slg.-------OPS+---------PA

    ---1.17-------1.13--------1.22------136 (t 97th)-----7,111

    Hitting Stats Comparison Chart:

    Terry, Cobb, Wagner, Hornsby, Ruth, T. Williams, Gehrig, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, DiMaggio, Speaker, Lajoie, Musial, Collins, Crawford, J. Jackson, Wheat, Roush, Foxx, Clemente, Schmidt, Yaz, Anson, Bonds, B. Williams, Kiner, Killebrew, Rose, Gwynn, Kaline, Greenberg, Waner, R. Jackson, Boggs, Gehringer, Brouthers, Delahanty, Simmons, Mize, Brett, F. Robinson, Ashburn, Sisler, Snider, Banks, Molitor, Keeler, Bench, Henderson.

    Code:
    Terry--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----1---1----0--1---0---1----0---0---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league----3---3----0--0---0---1----0---2---0---0---0---0--0
    3rd league----0---1----1--1---1---0----1---0---0---1---0---0--0
    4th-----------2---1----0--2---1---0----0---2---1---0---0---0--2
    5th-----------0---0----1--1---0---0----2---0---2---1---0---0--1
    6th-----------1---0----0--0---0---2----1---0---0---0---0---0--0
    
    Cobb--------BA--Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI-TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+ 
    led league--12---8----3----4----1---5---4---6----7----8----6---0--11
    2nd-league---3---3----4----4----2---2---2---2----7----3----1---1---3
    3rd----------1---3----4----2----2---2---1---2----0----3----2---0---1 
    4th----------2---0----0----1----0---1---0---1----0----1----3---1---1
    5th----------1---0----0----1----0---2---1---0----1----0----0---1---0
    6th----------2---0----2----0----0---0---0---0----0----0----0---0---0
    
    Wagner-------BA--Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI--TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----8---2----7----3----0---2---5----7---4----6----5---0--6
    2nd league----2---2----1----3----1---2---2----1---1----3----0---0--2
    3rd-----------0---5----3----2----0---2---2----4---2----2----2---0--2
    4th-----------2---3----0----0----1---2---3----2---1----1----0---1--1
    5th-----------1---1----1----0----2---1---1----2---2----0----0---0--0
    6th-----------1---0----0----1----2---0---1----0---0----1----0---1--0
    
    Hornsby-----BA---Hits-2B---3B--HR----R--RBI--TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---8----4----4----2---2----5---4----7----9----9----0---3--12
    2nd league---2----1----1----1---2----1---1----2----1----1----0---1---1
    3rd----------1----1----1----1---3----0---2----0----1----1----0---0---0
    4th----------1----3----4----0---1----2---0----0----0----1----0---2---0
    5th----------0----0----0----0---5----0---0----0----0----1----0---0---0
    6th----------0----0----0----1---1----0---1----1----1----0----0---2---1
    
    Ruth---------BA---Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI--TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----1----0----1----0---12---8---6----6----9---13----0--11--13
    2nd league----2----0----1----0----2---1---2--- 3----2----1----0---1---1
    3rd-----------2----0----1----0----1---0---0----2----1----1----0---1---2
    4th-----------1----3----0----0----0---0---3----0----2----0----0---0---0
    5th-----------1----0----0----0----0---1---0----0----0----0----0---0---0
    6th-----------0----2----1----1----0---1---1----0----0----0----0---0---0		
    							
    Ted Williams--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA--SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league-----6----0----2---0---4---6----4----6---12---8---0---8--9
    2nd in league--2----1----2---0---4---1----2----0----0---1---0---1--1
    3rd------------1----2----0---0---2---1----1----4----0---1---0---2--3
    4th------------1----1----2---0---0---1----1----0----0---2---0---0--0
    5th------------0----4----0---0---0---0----1----0----0---0---0---1--0
    6th------------0----0----0---0---3---0----0----0----1---0---0---1--0
    
    Gehrig------BA---Hits-2B---3B---HR--Runs--RBI--TB---OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+ 
    Led league---1----1----1----4----2----4----4----2----4----2---0---3--3
    2nd league---2----3----0----0----4----2----4----3----2----4---0---2--6
    3rd----------3----0----0----1----3----3----2----2----3----1---0---3--3
    4th----------0----1----0----0----1----2----2----0----0----3---0---0--0
    5th----------2----1----0----0----1----0----0----1----1----0---0---0--0
    6th----------1----0----1----0----1----0----0----1----0----0---0---1--0
    
    Mickey Mantle--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league------1----1----0---1---4----6----1----3---3---4---0---5--8
    2nd in league---1----0----1---0---3----2----3----4---5---0---0---3--3
    3rd-------------1----0----0---0---2----1----1----2---1---2---0---2--1
    4th-------------2----2----0---1---0----0----0----1---2---0---2---0--0	
    5th-------------0----0----0---0---1----0----2----0---0---0---0---0--0
    6th-------------0----0----0---1---0----1----3----0---1---1---0---1--0				
    
    Willie Mays----BA---Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league------1----1----0---3----4---2----0----3---2---5---4---1--6
    2nd in league---3----1----1---1----1---5----2----5---1---3---0---1--1
    3rd-------------2----1----1---1----3---3----3----5---2---2---0---2--5
    4th-------------0----0----0---0----1---0----2----1---1---2---1---1--2
    5th-------------1----1----0---0----2---0----1----1---5---4---0---1--0
    6th-------------1----2----2---0----2---2----2----0---1---0---0---3--1	
    
    Hank Aaron----BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league-----2---2----4---0---4----3----4---8---0---4---0---0--3
    2nd in league--0---3----2---2---4----1----0---2---2---5---1---1--4
    3rd------------0---1----1---0---1----4----2---2---3---4---0---2--4
    4th------------3---0----1---2---2----2----2---2---1---1---2---2--1
    5th------------4---0----0---0---2----1----1---0---2---1---0---0--1
    6th------------0---3----1---0---2----1----1---1---1---2---2---0--2	
    
    Joe DiMaggio---BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA--SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league------2---0----0---1---2---1----2----3---0----2---0---0--1
    2nd in league---0---1----1---0---0---2----3----2---0----5---0---0--4
    3rd-------------2---1----0---4---1---0----3----1---2----0---0---0--2
    4th-------------0---2----1---0---5---0----1----1---3----0---0---0--0
    5th-------------0---0----0---0---2---2----1----2---0----0---0---0--1
    6th-------------0---1----1---0---1---1----1----0---0----1---0---0--0
    
    Tris Speaker--BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league-----1---2----8---0---1---0----0----1---4---1---0---0--1
    2nd in league--2---1----3---1---2---4----1----3---3---2---0---1--4
    3rd------------7---2----1---1---0---2----1----2---4---4---1---0--5	
    4th------------2---4----0---0---2---2----2----3---3---4---1---4--3
    5th------------1---2----0---0---0---0----0----1---1---2---3---2--3
    6th------------1---0----1---1---0---2----0----0---0---1---1---3--0
    
    Nap Lajoie---BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs--RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league----3---4----5---0---1----1----3---4---2---4---0---0--3
    2nd in league-3---0----4---1---0----1----1---2---2---3---0---0--3
    3rd-----------1---1----1---0---1----0----2---0---1---2---0---0--0
    4th-----------1---1----1---0---0----1----1---2---1---0---0---0--1
    5th-----------0---1----0---0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0---0--0
    6th-----------3---1----0---0---2----0----1---0---0---2---1---0--4
    
    Stan Musial-BA--Hits-2B---3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    Led league---7---6----8----5---0---5----2----6---6---6----0---1--6
    2nd league---2---3----3----1---1---4----0----2---7---3----0---0--4
    3rd----------5---2----1----1---1---4----3----1---0---0----0---2--0
    4th----------2---1----0----2---1---1----2----2---2---3----0---2--3
    5th----------1---0----0----1---1---1----2----2---0---1----0---2--0
    6th----------0---0----2----0---1---0----0----1---1---0----0---0--1
    
    Ed Collins--BA--Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    Led League---0---0----0---0----0---3----0---0----0---0---4---1--0
    2nd league---3---2----0---1----0---1----0---0----3---0---4---5--1
    3rd----------0---1----0---0----0---2----1---1----7---1---2---2--2
    4th----------5---1----1---0----0---2----0---0----2---0---2---2--2
    5th----------2---3----0---1----0---0----1---3----2---1---1---1--3
    6th----------1---1----0---2----0---1----0---1----1---2---1---1--0
    
    Crawford----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0----0----1---6---2----1----3----2---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league---4----5----4---3---2----1----4----6---0---4---0---0--2
    3rd----------1----4----0---3---2----0----2----2---0---3---0---0--4
    4th----------2----0----1---0---1----1----2----1---2---1---0---0--3
    5th----------0----2----0---0---3----2----1----2---2---2---0---0--0
    6th----------1----0----2---3---1----0----2----1---1---0---1---0--1
    
    J.Jackson---BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0----2----1---3---0---0----0---2---1----1----0---0--0
    2nd league---3----2----2---1---0---1----0---2---2----3----0---0--3
    3rd league---2----2----2---2---1---2----1---1---0----1----0---1--2
    4th----------2----2----0---1---0---1----4---1---3----2----0---0--1
    5th----------0----0----0---0---1---0----0---0---1----2----0---0--3
    6th----------0----0----0---0---0---1----0---0---0----0----1---0--0
    
    Z. Wheat----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---1----0----2---0---0---0----0---0----0----1----0---0--0
    2nd league---1----3----2---0---0---0----0---0----0----0----0---0--1
    3rd league---2----2----1---0---0---1----2---0----0----1----0---0--1
    4th----------2----0----0---0---1---0----0---0----2----2----0---0--1
    5th----------1----1----0---2---2---0----1---0----1----1----0---0--2
    6th----------0----0----0---1---2---1----2---0----0----0----0---0--1
    
    Edd Roush--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--2----0----1---1---1---0----0---1---0----1----0---0--1
    2nd league--2----0----1---2---0---0----1---0---0----0----1---0--1
    3rd league--1----3----0---3---0---0----1---0---1----1----0---0--2
    4th---------1----1----0---1---1---0----0---1---1----1----1---0--1
    5th---------1----1----0---0---0---2----0---1---1----0----0---0--0
    6th---------0----1----0---0---0---0----1---2---1----1----1---0--1
    
    J. Foxx-----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---2-----0---0---0---4---1----3---3---3---5----0---2--5
    2nd league---2-----1---0---0---3---2----0---1---3---1----0---1--2
    3rd league---1-----2---0---0---2---1----3---0---3---2----0---3--0
    4th----------0-----0---0---0---3---2----2---3---0---1----0---4--3
    5th----------1-----0---0---0---0---1----0---1---2---2----0---0--1
    6th----------0-----0---0---0---0---1----2---1---0---1----0---0--0
    
    Clemente----BA---Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---4----2----0---1----0---0----0----0---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league---2----1----1---1----0---0----2----1---1---0---0---0--1
    3rd league---1----1----0---2----0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0--1
    4th----------2----1----0---1----0---2----0----0---1---0---0---0--0
    5th----------1----1----1---4----0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0--0
    6th----------0----1----2---1----0---0----0----0---3---1---0---0--1
    
    Schmidt-----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0----0----0---0---8---1----4---3---3---5----0---4--6
    2nd league---0----0----0---0---1---2----1---1---0---2----0---2--1
    3rd league---0----0----0---0---2---6----4---0---0---2----0---3--2
    4th----------1----0----0---0---1---0----0---1---3---3----0---3--1
    5th----------0----0----0---0---0---0----0---4---1---0----0---0--1
    6th----------0----0----0---0---1---1----0---0---0---0----0---1--0
    
    Yaz----------BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----3----2---3---0---1----3----1---2---5---3----0---2--4
    2nd league----2----0---1---0---0----1----0---0---1---0----0---3--1
    3rd league----0----0---2---1---1----1----1---0---1---0----0---1--0
    4th-----------0----2---0---0---1----1----0---2---0---1----0---1--0
    5th-----------0----1---0---0---0----1----1---0---0---0----0---2--0
    6th-----------0----1---1---0---0----0----0---2---0---0----0---0--1
    
    Anson-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs--RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--2----1----3--0---0-----0----8---1---4----0----0---1---1
    2nd league--5----4----2--1---0-----0----3---2---5----4----0---1---2
    3rd league--2----2----2--0---4-----0----3---2---1----1----0---1---1
    4th---------1----0----2--0---1-----2----0---2---1----3----0---2---3
    5th---------2----3----0--1---1-----2----0---0---2----1----0---0---3
    6th---------0----0----1--0---0-----4----0---3---3----0----0---2---1
    
    Bonds------BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--2----0----0--0---2---1----1---1---8----7----0--10---9
    2nd league--0----0----0--0---5---3----1---0---3----1----0---4---3
    3rd league--1----0----0--0---1---6----0---1---0----1----1---1---2
    4th---------1----0----0--0---4---0----4---0---2----3----1---0---0
    5th---------0----0----0--0---0---1----0---3---1----1----2---0---1
    6th---------0----0----0--2---0---3----2---1---0----1----2---0---0
    
    B. Williams--BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----1---1----0--0---0---1----0---3---0---1---0---0--1
    2nd league----0---0----1--1---2---0----3---1---1---0---0---0--0
    3rd league----0---3----3--1---3---0----0---1---0---2---0---0--1
    4th-----------2---0----1--0---1---1----0---1---0---1---0---0--0
    5th-----------0---1----0--1---0---2----0---1---0---0---0---0--0
    6th-----------0---1----0--0---1---0----0---0---0---1---0---1--0
    
    Kiner-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0---0----0--0---7---1----1---1---1---3---0---3--0
    2nd league---0---0----0--0---0---0----3---2---0---0---0---3--0
    3rd league---0---0----0--0---0---1----1---0---2---1---0---0--0
    4th league---1---0----0--0---0---1----0---2---0---2---0---1--2
    5th----------1---0----0--0---1---1----1---0---0---0---0---0--0
    6th----------0---1----0--0---0---0----1---0---2---0---0---1--0
    
    Killebrew---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---0---0----0--0---6----0----3---0---1---1---0---4---0
    2nd league---0---0----0--0---2----1----2---2---1---3---0---1---1
    3rd league---0---0----0--0---2----1----2---4---2---4---0---3---2
    4th----------0---0----0--0---0----1----1---0---5---0---0---1---5
    5th----------1---0----0--0---2----0----0---2---2---2---0---1---2
    6th----------0---0----0--0---0----1----1---1---0---0---0---0---0
    
    Rose--------BA-Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---3---7---5--0---0---4----0---0---1---0---0---0---0
    2nd league---2---5---2--2---0---3----0---1---1---0---0---0---0
    3rd league---0---1---4--0---0---3----0---1---3---0---0---0---0
    4th----------1---1---0--0---0---1----0---1---1---0---0---2---0
    5th----------1---2---2--2---0---1----0---1---1---0---0---2---0
    6th----------0---0---0--1---0---0----0---1---0---0---0---1---1
    
    Gwynn------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB---OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--8---7----0--0---0----1----0---0----1---0---0---0--0
    2nd league--1---0----1--3---0----0----0---0----2---0---1---0--0
    3rd league--2---1----1--0---0----0----0---1----0---0---0---0--1
    4th---------1---0----1--0---0----1----0---0----1---0---0---0--1
    5th---------1---0----0--1---0----0----0---0----2---0---0---0--0
    6th---------0---0----0--0---0----0----1---0----0---0---1---0--1
    
    Kaline-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs--RBI-TB---OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league--1----1---1--0---0----0----0---1----0---1---0---0---1
    2nd league--3----1---1--0---0----1----2---1----3---1---0---0---2
    3rd league--2----1---1--0---0----0----0---0----2---1---0---0---1
    4th---------1----1---0--1---0----0----0---2----0---1---1---0---1
    5th---------0----0---2--1---0----1----1---0----2---1---0---1---0
    6th---------0----1---1--1---0----1----1---1----0---1---1---1---0
    
    Greenberg---BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0----0----2--0---4----1---4---2---0---1---0---2--0
    2nd league---0----0----2--0---2----1---1---3---2---4---0---1--4
    3rd league---0----0----1--1---0----1---1---1---2---2---0---0--1
    4th----------0----1----0--0---0----1---1---0---0---0---0---0--2
    5th----------1----1----0--1---0----0---0---1---0---0---0---0--0
    6th----------1----1----0--0---0----0---0---0---0---0---0---3--0
    
    Waner-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---3---2----2--2---0---2----1---1---0---0---0---0---0
    2nd league---1---3----1--5---0---2----0---0---2---0---1---2---0
    3rd league---0---1----1--0---0---0----0---1---2---1---0---1---1
    4th----------3---1----2--1---0---1----0---2---1---2---0---1---4
    5th----------1---0----0--0---0---0----0---3---1---2---0---0---0
    6th----------0---2----1--0---0---1----0---1---2---0---0---0---1
    
    R.Jackson----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league----0---0----0--0---4----2---1---0---0---3---0---0---4
    2nd league----0---0----3--0---3----0---0---3---0---2---0---1---1
    3rd league----0---0----0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---0---0---0
    4th-----------0---0----0--0---1----0---1---1---1---0---0---1---1
    5th-----------0---0----1--0---2----2---0---0---1---2---0---1---1
    6th-----------0---0----0--0---0----0---3---0---2---1---0---0---1
    
    Boggs--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---5----1----2--0---0---2----0---0---6---0---0---1--1
    2nd league---1----5----3--0---0---0----0---0---1---0---0---0--2
    3rd league---2----0----2--0---0---1----0---0---1---1---0---3--0
    4th----------1----2----1--0---0---0----0---1---1---0---0---0--2
    5th----------2----0----0--0---0---1----0---1---0---0---0---2--0
    6th----------0----0----0--0---0---1----0---0---1---0---0---0--1
    
    Gehringer---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---1---2----2--1---0----2----0---0---0---0---1---0--0
    2nd league---1---2----2--1---0----1----0---0---2---0---1---0--0
    3rd league---0---0----1--1---0----3----0---0---0---0---0---1--0
    4th----------1---0----2--0---0----1----0---2---1---0---0---1--0
    5th----------2---3----0--1---0----2----1---0---1---0---0---2--0
    6th----------0---0----0--0---0----0----0---4---1---0---0---1--1
    
    Brouthers----BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----5---3----3---1---2----2---2---4---5---7---0---0--8
    2nd league----1---2----2---4---1----0---2---2---5---3---0---0--1
    3rd league----2---1----1---2---2----1---1---1---0---0---0---0--2
    4th-----------1---1----2---1---0----0---1---1---1---0---0---2--0
    5th-----------1---2----0---1---2----1---1---0---1---0---0---0--0
    6th-----------0---0----1---0---0----0---1---3---0---0---0---0--0
    
    Delahanty----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----1---1----5--1---2---0----3---2---2---5---1---0--4
    2nd league----3---1----3--0---0---0----2---2---1---2---0---0--3
    3rd league----2---1----2--2---1---1----1---2---2---1---0---0--1
    4th-----------2---2----1--0---2---1----0---1---0---1---0---2--1
    5th-----------0---1----0--0---1---2----1---0---2---1---0---0--1
    6th-----------2---0----0--2---0---0----0---0---0---0---0---2--1
    
    Mize---------BA-Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league----1---0---1--1---4---1----3---3---0---4---0---0---2
    2nd league----2---0---1--0---2---1----1---4---2---3---0---0---5
    3rd league----0---3---1--2---1---2----3---0---1---2---0---2---2
    4th-----------0---0---0--0---1---0----0---0---1---0---0---0---0
    5th-----------3---1---0--1---1---1----1---0---2---0---0---1---0
    6th-----------0---2---0--0---0---1----0---0---0---0---0---1---0
    
    Brett-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---3---3----2--3---0----0---0---1---3---3---0---0---3
    2nd league---2---0----2--1---0----1---1---2---1---0---0---0---0
    3rd league---0---0----2--0---0----1---0---0---1---0---0---1---0
    4th----------0---0----1--1---0----1---0---1---1---1---0---0---0
    5th----------0---1----1--1---0----1---1---1---0---1---0---0---2
    6th----------2---0----0--2---0----0---1---0---1---2---0---0---0
    
    F.Robinson---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----1---0----1--0---1----3---1---1---2---4---0---0--4
    2nd league----2---2----0--0---2----2---4---1---6---1---0---1--1
    3rd league----1---1----3--1---3----0---2---1---0---0---1---1--1
    4th-----------1---0----1--0---3----1---0---3---3---5---1---2--1
    5th-----------1---0----0--0---2----2---1---0---0---1---0---1--7
    6th-----------2---1----2--0---1----1---0---1---0---1---1---0--1
    
    Ashburn-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---2---3----0--2---0---0----0---0---4---0---1---4---0
    2nd league---2---1----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---2---2---0
    3rd league---0---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---1---0---0---1---0
    4th----------0---0----1--1---0---1----0---0---1---0---1---0---0
    5th----------0---1----1--3---0---2----0---0---1---0---2---1---1
    6th----------2---3----0--0---0---2----0---0---0---0---2---1---0
    
    Sisler-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----2---2----0--2---0---1----0---2---0---0---4---0--0
    2nd league----1---1----1--2---2---2----1---1---1---2---2---0--1
    3rd league----2---3----1--1---0---0----0---1---1---0---0---0--2
    4th-----------2---3----1--0---0---1----1---1---0---2---0---0--1
    5th-----------0---0----0--0---0---0----0---3---1---2---1---0--1
    6th-----------0---0----0--0---0---0----2---0---1---0---1---0--1
    
    Snider------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
    led league---0----1---0--0---1----3---1---3---1---2---0---1---1
    2nd league---0----1---2--0---1----1---1---1---1---2---0---0---1
    3rd league---2----1---2--2---1----0---1---0---2---0---0---1---2
    4th----------1----0---0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---0---1---0
    5th----------1----0---0--0---0----0---0---3---0---1---1---1---0
    6th----------0----0---0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---1---1---1
    
    Simmons-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---2---2----0--0---0----1---1---2---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league---2---0----2--0---1----2---2---2---0---3---0---0--0
    3rd league---1---3----0--0---2----0---2---1---0---3---0---0--2
    4th----------3---3----0--0---1----0---1---1---0---0---0---0--1
    5th----------0---0----0--0---3----0---2---1---0---2---0---0--1
    6th----------0---0----0--1---1----0---1---0---1---0---0---0--1
    
    Banks--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league----0---0----0--0---2---0----2---1---0---1---0---0--0
    2nd league----0---0----0--1---2---2----0---1---0---1---0---0--1
    3rd league----0---0----0--0---2---0----2---3---0---0---0---0--0
    4th-----------0---1----1--0---1---0----1---0---0---1---0---0--1
    5th-----------0---0----1--1---0---0----1---0---0---2---0---0--2
    6th-----------1---0----0--0---1---0----1---1---0---0---0---0--0
    
    Bench------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--0---0----0--0---2---0----3---1---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league--0---0----1--0---1---1----1---1---0---0---0---0--1
    3rd league--0---0----2--0---0---0----1---1---0---2---0---1--0
    4th---------0---0----0--0---1---0----0---0---0---2---0---0--0
    5th---------0---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---1---0---0--0
    6th---------0---0----1--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---0---0--0
    
    Molitor-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league---0---3----1--1---0---3----0---0---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league---2---1----0--1---0---1----0---0---1---0---0---0--0
    3rd league---1---2----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---1---0--1
    4th----------1---2----0--0---0---1----0---1---0---0---2---0--0
    5th----------2---1----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---1---0---0--0
    6th----------3---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---2---0--1
    
    Keeler-----BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
    led league--2----3----0--0---0----1---0---0---0---0---0---0--0
    2nd league--2----5----0--0---0----5---0---1---1---1---0---0--1
    3rd league--1----1----0--0---0----1---0---1---2---0---0---0--0
    4th---------3----2----0--1---0----1---0---1---0---0---1---0--1
    5th---------1----1----0--0---0----1---0---1---0---0---1---0--0
    6th---------1----0----0--1---0----1---0---2---1---0---0---0--0
    
    Henderson----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB-BB--OPS+
    led league----0---1----0--0---0----5---0---0---1---0---12--4---1
    2nd league----1---0----0--1---0----1---0---0---2---1----0--2---1
    3rd league----0---0----0--0---0----1---0---0---6---0----0--1---0
    4th-----------2---0----0--0---0----3---0---0---1---0----2--5---0
    5th-----------0---0----0--0---0----1---0---0---2---0----1--0---0
    6th-----------0---0----0--0---1----0---0---1---1---0----2--1---0
    leecemark; October 30, 2004, 08:01 AM
    --Congratulations to Lou Gehrig for his easy and well deserved win here. Foxx was just as easy a second place winner. The big question was who is the third best firstbaseman of all time and our group selected Hank Greenberg for that spot. The most debated issue was whether George Sisler was an all time great or an all time overrated player. The majority here tended to vote closer to great than overrated, as Sisler was voted into the 5th slot. Here are the top 10.

    1. Lou Gehrig 129
    2. Jimmie Foxx 115
    3. Hank Greenberg 67.5
    4. Johnny Mize 60
    5. George Sisler 50
    6. Jeff Bagwell 37
    7. Willie McCovey 36
    8. Frank Thomas 35.5
    9. Mark McGwire 35
    10. Dan Brouthers 32

    --I was surprised by the lack of support for Eddie Murray who has better counting numbers than pretty much all these guys. Of course, he wasn't quite as good at his peak as any of them and nowhere near as good as some of them. I also was surprised by Harmon Killebrew's low vote totals. He is pretty similar to the McCovey, Thomas, McGwire group and probably more consistent over the course of his career than any of them. Also, while Killebrew wasn't a great defender, he was probably the best of that group (maybe the best baserunner too, although that is a dubious distinction here).
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    538280; October 29, 07:05 AM
    The results are now in. We had 18 ballots, and Lou Gehrig was a near unanimous #1 with 17 first place votes (there was also one first place vote for George Sisler). After the automatic two of Gehrig and Foxx, Frank Thomas claimed the #3 spot, and was closely followed by Jeff Bagwell at #4. Here are the final results (first place votes in parenthesis):

    1. Lou Gehrig-213 (17)
    2. Jimmie Foxx-159
    3. Frank Thomas-96
    4. Jeff Bagwell-94
    5. Hank Greenberg-79
    6. Eddie Murray-54
    7. Johnny Mize-53
    8. Willie McCovey-51
    9. George Sisler-40 (1)
    10. Cap Anson-28
    11. Buck Leonard-23
    12. Harmon Killebrew-20

    No one else received more than 20 points. I'll now get the second basemen poll up.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Bill Burgess; April 22, 2007, 02:45 PM

    1. Lou Gehrig - 150 points
    2. Jimmy Foxx - 141
    3. Jeff Bagwell - 98
    4. Hank Greenberg - 65
    5. Johnny Mize - 57
    6. Willie McCovey - 53
    7. Frank Thomas - 53
    8. George Sisler - 42
    9. Cap Anson - 32
    10. Eddie Murray - 25
    11. Harmon Killebrew - 24
    12. Dan Brouthers - 20
    13. Bill Terry - 15
    14. Mark McGwire - 12
    15. Dick Allen - 7
    16. Roger Connor - 4
    17. Jake Beckley - 4
    18. Rafael Palmeiro - 2
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Top OPS+ seasons of some prominent 1Bmen. (Minimum 500 PA, except for pre-1900, due to fewer games/season.)

    Lou Gehrig..........221, 208, 203, 195, 194, 190 Average: 202
    Dan Brouthers.....206, 201, 199, 189, 187, 182 Average: 194
    Jimmie Foxx........205, 200, 188, 186, 182, 182 Average: 191
    Frank Thomas.....212, 181, 180, 178, 178, 177 Average: 184
    Mark McGwire......217, 203, 178, 175, 168, 164 Average: 184
    Cap Anson..........200, 191, 180, 178, 176, 176 Average: 183 (fewer games due to era)
    Roger Connor......201, 185, 184, 176, 171, 168 Average: 181
    Willie McCovey....211, 182, 175, 165, 161, 160 Average: 176
    Dick Allen...........200, 181, 174, 166, 165, 162 Average: 175
    Jeff Bagwell........213, 179, 169, 168, 158, 152 Average: 173
    Albert Pujols.......189, 180, 175, 167, 158, 155 Average: 170
    Johnny Mize.......178, 176, 175, 172, 161, 160 Average: 170
    Hank Greenberg..172, 170, 170, 169, 163, 156 Average: 166
    Harmon Killebrew.179, 174, 161, 161, 158, 153 Average: 164
    George Sisler......181, 170, 161, 157, 154, 140 Average: 161
    Bill Terry...........158, 156, 149, 141, 137, 135 Average: 146
    Ted Kluszewski....166, 147, 145, 142, 132, 124 Average: 142
    Gil Hodges..........143, 142, 141, 138, 128, 126 Average: 136
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Lou Gehrig - 154.0 - 2 SLG. titles - 9954 PA - 179 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 230. Ave. held up well, of course due to lack of decline phase, hence low PA. Only won 2 titles.
    Jimmie Foxx - 143.7 - 5 SLG. titles - 9,599 PA - 163 OPS+ - Rel. ISO - 214. Too few PA relative to Aaron/Mays
    ----------------------
    ...............OPS+....EqA.....BRAR....BRAR/650 PA
    Gehrig.........179.....345......1219........82.02
    Brouthers.....170....324.......780........66.21
    Pujols..........171....343.......515........82.41
    Foxx...........163.....327......1012........68.02
    F.Thomas....160.....342......1146.......81.31
    D.Allen........156.....325.......801........71.19
    McCovey.....148.....318.......960........64.42
    -------------------------------------------------
    Relative ISO:

    Lou Gehrig: 230
    Mark McGwire: 223
    Hank Greenberg: 220
    Jimmy Foxx: 214
    Johnny Mize 209
    Dick Allen: 198
    Willie McCovey: 192
    Harmon Killebrew: 190
    Albert Pujols: 182 (6 seasons)
    Frank Howard 175
    Frank Thomas: 169
    Rafael Palmeiro: 149
    Eddie Murray: 138
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Relative ISO: Some Pre-1920 hitters:

    Dan Brouthers 178
    Roger Connor 172
    Cap Anson 121

    All-Time list for OPS+ (baseball-Reference)
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...s_career.shtml

    Relative Stats Chart:
    http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.p...&postcount=161
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Courtesy of David Kent. Here is a list of the top 100 sluggers of all time based on relative isolated power (min 5000 AB). The values are league adjusted but not park adjusted. (NB: If someone has park factor values for average and slugging, I would love to see it.)
    Code:
    :
    Player                AB    Slg    Avg    ISO  Rel ISO
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Lou Gehrig           8001  0.632  0.340  0.292  227.6
    Hank Greenberg       5193  0.605  0.313  0.292  223.1
    Mark McGwire         6187  0.588  0.263  0.325  217.1
    Jimmie Foxx          8134  0.609  0.325  0.284  215.6
    Johnny Mize          6443  0.562  0.312  0.250  209.8
    Dick Allen           6332  0.534  0.292  0.242  199.2
    Willie McCovey       8197  0.515  0.270  0.245  192.3
    Harmon Killebrew     8147  0.509  0.256  0.252  190.8
    Dan Brouthers        6711  0.519  0.342  0.177  181.2
    Frank Howard         6488  0.499  0.273  0.225  175.3
    Roger Connor         7794  0.486  0.317  0.169  171.6
    Frank Thomas         6851  0.567  0.308  0.259  168.3
    Norm Cash            6705  0.488  0.271  0.217  165.2
    Cecil Fielder        5157  0.482  0.255  0.227  157.6
    Jeff Bagwell         7697  0.542  0.297  0.245  157.6
    Jim Bottomley        7471  0.500  0.310  0.191  156.2
    Boog Powell          6681  0.462  0.266  0.196  153.9
    -------Bill Terry, Giants' 1B, 1929 ----------------------------1933-------------------1924-27----BB-Reference


    Bill Terry, Giants' 1B, 1932-------------------------------------------------------------------------Bill Terry, Giants' 1B, 1932


    ------1931----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1932


    Source: The Sporting News Selects Baseball's Greatest Players, by Ron Smith, 1998, pp. 130.

    ------------------------1935, Polo Grounds



    Bill Terry's claim to fame is that he once hit over .400. It was in 1930. But since the NL collectively hit .309 (!) that season, Bill's relative BA was only 1.32. The following charts, which represent some of the more famous hitting seasons of the game, clearly shows that many other hitters hit over that in their relative BA.

    Bill was also perceived as one of the premier fielding 1Bmen of his time.

    Some of the Greatest Hitting Seasons Ever: Listed according to OPS+.
    Seasons pre-1920 are high-lighted in red, for convenience.
    Code:
    ----------------Rel.SLG-Rel.OBP--Rel.BA.-OPS+-INK--PCA-----WS--TPR
    Bonds, 2002------1.94----1.74-----1.42---275---09--20.6----49--11.2
    Bonds, 2001------2.03 ---1.54-----1.34---262---09--20.82---54--12.2
    Bonds, 2004------1.91----1.82-----1.37---260---09--21.8----53--12.5
    Ruth, 1920-------2.18----1.52-----1.32---256---16--28.83---51--10.0
    Ruth,1921--------2.07----1.43-----1.29---239---16--24.79---53---9.8
    Ruth, 1923-------1.96----1.55-----1.39---239---16--22.2----55--11.2
    Williams, 1941---1.88----1.61-----1.52---235---16--22.1----42---8.8
    Gehrig,1927------1.91----1.34-----1.30---221---07--17.17---44---9.1
    Ruth, 1924-------1.86----1.43-----1.30---220---16--20.8----45---8.5
    Mantle,1956------1.78----1.36-----1.35---210---18--22.96---49---8.8
    Cobb, 1917-------1.78----1.39-----1.54---209---16--19.7----46---8.4
    Hornsby,1922-----1.78----1.31-----1.37---207---23--20.37---42---9.2
    Foxx,1932--------1.85----1.35-----1.31---205---14--18.54---40---7.2
    Wagner,1908------1.77----1.38-----1.48---205---19--18.42---59--10.2
    Brett, 1980------1.66----1.38-----1.44---202---07--12.43---36---7.4
    Cash, 1961-------1.67----1.47-----1.41---201---07--17.30---42---8.3
    Musial,1948------1.83----1.35-----1.44---200---20--20.30---46---7.3
    Lajoie, 1901-----1.73----1.39-----1.53---200---23--18.94---42---7.4
    F.Robinson, 1966-1.72----1.34-----1.31---199---18--16.48---41---6.8
    Cobb,1911--------1.73----1.38-----1.53---196---22--20.74---47---6.4
    Yaz,1967---------1.77----1.38-----1.38---195---21--16.81---42---6.5
    J.Jackson, 1911--1.64----1.38-----1.49---193---00--17.13---39---6.8
    T.Williams,1949--1.71----1.38-----1.30---192---19--17.24---40---6.6
    Vaughan, 1935----1.55----1.48-----1.38---190---09--15.72---39---7.6
    Delahanty, 1899--1.59----1.35-----1.45---189---16--16.36---41---5.4
    Speaker, 1912----1.62----1.39-----1.44---188---06--18.13---51---7.1
    Morgan, 1976-----1.59----1.40-----1.25---187---03----?-----37---7.5
    Kiner, 1951------1.60----1.36-----1.18---184---12--15.64---35---5.1
    Aaron, 1959------1.59----1.24-----1.36---181---10--15.21---38---7.2
    Sisler,1920------1.63----1.29-----1.43---181---08--15.40---33---7.6
    Burkett, 1901----1.46----1.37-----1.40---181---11--15.21---38---5.8
    Al Rosen, 1953---1.60----1.25-----1.28---180---14--15.33---42---6.5
    Medwick, 1937----1.67----1.24-----1.37---180---24--17.47---40---5.2
    Carew, 1977------1.40----1.35-----1.45---178---10--15.74---37---6.3
    Hack Wilson,1930-1.61----1.27-----1.17---178---13--15.81---35---4.9
    H.Duffy, 1894----1.59----1.42-----1.58---177---20--16.44---33---4.0
    Simmons,1930-----1.68----1.20-----1.32---176---07--12.94---36---4.5
    Wagner, 1900-----1.56----1.28-----1.36---175---10--16.05---34---4.3
    Mays, 1954-------1.63----1.22-----1.30---175---08--12.11---40---6.8
    Mize, 1937-------1.55----1.28-----1.33---172---00--14.95---34---3.3
    Greenberg, 1937--1.60----1.29-----1.19---172---04--12.38---33---5.5
    Babe Herman,1930-1.51----1.26-----1.29---170---00--16.26---32---3.5
    Sisler, 1922-----1.49----1.34-----1.47---170---13--14.08---29---5.2
    Clemente, 1967---1.52----1.28-----1.43---170---07--12.59---35---5.6
    Snider, 1954-----1.58----1.26-----1.28---170---03--12.33---39---4.2
    Zimmerman, 1912--1.54----1.22-----1.36---169---16--13.16---34---5.0
    Morgan, 1975-----1.37----1.43-----1.27---169---02----?-----44---9.8
    DiMaggio,1937----1.62----1.16-----1.23---168---07--12.78---39---5.9
    Heilmann, 1921---1.48----1.24-----1.34---167---07--12.13---28---3.4
    Reiser, 1941-----1.54----1.24-----1.32---165---13--10.22---34---4.7
    Ott, 1929--------1.49----1.25-----1.11---165---02--13.15---31---5.2
    Keeler, 1897-----1.39----1.31-----1.45---164---07--11.28---32---4.0
    K.Williams, 1922-1.57----1.18-----1.16---164---08---8.95---30---4.3
    Z.Wheat, 1924----1.40----1.27-----1.32---163---00--10.67---35---4.5
    Crawford, 1911---1.46----1.29-----1.37---163---00--11.49---32---2.2
    Klein,1930-------1.53----1.21-----1.27---159---06--14.17---28---5.6
    O'Doul, 1929-----1.46----1.30-----1.35---159---07--11.83---31---5.1
    J.Robinson, 1949-1.35----1.29-----1.30---159---06--12.22---36---6.5
    Averill, 1936----1.48----1.20-----1.30---159---04--12.86---27---4.0
    Rose, 1969-------1.38----1.34-----1.39---158---07--11.94---37---3.7
    Terry, 1930------1.38----1.25-----1.32---158---07--14.46---32---5.5
    J.Rice, 1978-----1.55----1.13-----1.20---158---17--10.08---36---4.0
    Colavito, 1961---1.46----1.22-----1.13---157---01--10.10---33---4.0
    P.Waner, 1927----1.42----1.28-----1.34---155---13--10.45---36---3.4
    Manush, 1928-----1.44----1.20-----1.34---154---00--11.08---35---2.9
    Oliva, 1964------1.45----1.14-----1.30---150---12---9.43---27---3.2
    T.Davis, 1962----1.36----1.15-----1.32---148---11--11.70---36---3.6
    Trosky, 1936-----1.52----1.05-----1.18---148---04---9.66---21---1.9
    B.Williams, 1970-1.49----1.18-----1.24---147---07--11.88---29---3.5
    Z.Wheat, 1925----1.30----1.15-----1.22---142---00--10.61---27---2.5
    Gehringer, 1936--1.31----1.18-----1.22---142---02--10.37---34---5.9
    KiKi Cuyler,1930-1.22----1.18-----1.17---133---03---9.82---29---3.0
    Lindstrom, 1930--1.28----1.18-----1.25---132---00--10.78---32---4.7
    J.Tobin, 1921----1.19----1.10-----1.20---119---02---8.24---25---0.5
    Same chart, according to Relative Slugging Average.
    Code:
    ----------------Rel.SLG-Rel.OBP--Rel.BA.-OPS+-INK--PCA-----WS--TPR
    Ruth, 1920-------2.18----1.52-----1.32---256---16--28.83---51--10.0
    Ruth,1921--------2.07----1.43-----1.29---239---16--24.79---53---9.8
    Bonds, 2001------2.03 ---1.54-----1.34---262---09--20.82---54--12.2
    Ruth, 1923-------1.96----1.55-----1.39---239---16--22.2----55--11.2
    Bonds, 2002------1.94----1.74-----1.42---275---09--20.6----49--11.2
    Gehrig,1927------1.91----1.34-----1.30---221---07--17.17---44---9.1
    Williams, 1941---1.88----1.61-----1.52---235---16--22.1----42---8.8
    Ruth, 1924-------1.86----1.43-----1.30---220---16--20.8----45---8.5
    Foxx,1932--------1.85----1.35-----1.31---205---14--18.54---40---7.2
    Bonds, 2004------1.91----1.82-----1.37---260---09--21.8----53--12.5
    Musial,1948------1.83----1.35-----1.44---200---20--20.30---46---7.3
    Mantle,1956------1.78----1.36-----1.35---210---18--22.96---49---8.8
    Cobb, 1917-------1.78----1.39-----1.54---209---16--19.7----46---8.4
    Hornsby,1922-----1.78----1.31-----1.37---207---23--20.37---42---9.2
    Wagner,1908------1.77----1.38-----1.48---205---19--18.42---59--10.2
    Yaz,1967---------1.77----1.38-----1.38---195---21--16.81---42---6.5
    Lajoie, 1901-----1.73----1.39-----1.53---200---23--18.94---42---7.4
    Cobb,1911--------1.73----1.38-----1.53---196---22--20.74---47---6.4
    F.Robinson, 1966-1.72----1.34-----1.31---199---18--16.48---41---6.8
    T.Williams,1949--1.71----1.38-----1.30---192---19--17.24---40---6.6
    Simmons,1930-----1.68----1.20-----1.32---176---07--12.94---36---4.5
    Cash, 1961-------1.67----1.47-----1.41---201---07--17.30---42---8.3
    Medwick, 1937----1.67----1.24-----1.37---180---24--17.47---40---5.2
    Brett, 1980------1.66----1.38-----1.44---202---07--12.43---36---7.4
    J.Jackson, 1911--1.64----1.38-----1.49---193---00--17.13---39---6.8
    Sisler,1920------1.63----1.29-----1.43---181---08--15.40---33---7.6
    Mays, 1954-------1.63----1.22-----1.30---175---08--12.11---40---6.8
    Speaker, 1912----1.62----1.39-----1.44---188---06--18.13---51---7.1
    DiMaggio,1937----1.62----1.16-----1.23---168---07--12.78---39---5.9
    Hack Wilson,1930-1.61----1.27-----1.17---178---13--15.81---35---4.9
    Kiner, 1951------1.60----1.36-----1.18---184---12--15.64---35---5.1
    Al Rosen, 1953---1.60----1.25-----1.28---180---14--15.33---42---6.5
    Greenberg, 1937--1.60----1.29-----1.19---172---04--12.38---33---5.5
    Delahanty, 1899--1.59----1.35-----1.45---189---16--16.36---41---5.4
    Morgan, 1976-----1.59----1.40-----1.25---187---03----?-----37---7.5
    Aaron, 1959------1.59----1.24-----1.36---181---10--15.21---38---7.2
    H.Duffy, 1894----1.59----1.42-----1.58---177---20--16.44---33---4.0
    Snider, 1954-----1.58----1.26-----1.28---170---03--12.33---39---4.2
    K.Williams, 1922-1.57----1.18-----1.16---164---08---8.95---30---4.3
    Wagner, 1900-----1.56----1.28-----1.36---175---10--16.05---34---4.3
    Mize, 1937-------1.55----1.28-----1.33---172---00--14.95---34---3.3
    Vaughan, 1935----1.55----1.48-----1.38---190---09--15.72---39---7.6
    J.Rice, 1978-----1.55----1.13-----1.20---158---17--10.08---36---4.0
    Reiser, 1941-----1.54----1.24-----1.32---165---13--10.22---34---4.7
    Zimmerman, 1912--1.54----1.22-----1.36---169---16--13.16---34---5.0
    Klein,1930-------1.53----1.21-----1.27---159---06--14.17---28---5.6
    Clemente, 1967---1.52----1.28-----1.43---170---07--12.59---35---5.6
    Trosky, 1936-----1.52----1.05-----1.18---148---04---9.66---21---1.9
    Babe Herman,1930-1.51----1.26-----1.29---170---00--16.26---32---3.5
    Sisler, 1922-----1.49----1.34-----1.47---170---13--14.08---29---5.2
    Ott, 1929--------1.49----1.25-----1.11---165---02--13.15---31---5.2
    B.Williams, 1970-1.49----1.18-----1.24---147---07--11.88---29---3.5
    Heilmann, 1921---1.48----1.24-----1.34---167---07--12.13---28---3.4
    Averill, 1936----1.48----1.20-----1.30---159---04--12.86---27---4.0
    Crawford, 1911---1.46----1.29-----1.37---163---00--11.49---32---2.2
    Colavito, 1961---1.46----1.22-----1.13---157---01--10.10---33---4.0
    Burkett, 1901----1.46----1.37-----1.40---181---11--15.21---38---5.8
    O'Doul, 1929-----1.46----1.30-----1.35---159---07--11.83---31---5.1
    Oliva, 1964------1.45----1.14-----1.30---150---12---9.43---27---3.2
    Manush, 1928-----1.44----1.20-----1.34---154---00--11.08---35---2.9
    P.Waner, 1927----1.42----1.28-----1.34---155---13--10.45---36---3.4
    Z.Wheat, 1924----1.40----1.27-----1.32---163---00--10.67---35---4.5
    Carew, 1977------1.40----1.35-----1.45---178---10--15.74---37---6.3
    Keeler, 1897-----1.39----1.31-----1.45---164---07--11.28---32---4.0
    Rose, 1969-------1.38----1.34-----1.39---158---07--11.94---37---3.7
    Terry, 1930------1.38----1.25-----1.32---158---07--14.46---32---5.5
    T.Davis, 1962----1.36----1.15-----1.32---148---11--11.70---36---3.6
    Morgan, 1975-----1.37----1.43-----1.27---169---02----?-----44---9.8
    J.Robinson, 1949-1.35----1.29-----1.30---159---06--12.22---36---6.5
    Gehringer, 1936--1.31----1.18-----1.22---142---02--10.37---34---5.9
    Z.Wheat, 1925----1.30----1.15-----1.22---142---00--10.61---27---2.5
    Lindstrom, 1930--1.28----1.18-----1.25---132---00--10.78---32---4.7
    KiKi Cuyler,1930-1.22----1.18-----1.17---133---03---9.82---29---3.0
    J.Tobin, 1921----1.19----1.10-----1.20---119---02---8.24---25---0.5
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 12-24-2011, 01:26 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      The book on 'Memphis Bill' is that he was as hard-nosed, hard-headed, money hungry and impolitic as he was great. A tremendous hitter, maybe the best fielding first baseman of his day, and a successful manager - who evidently regularly ticked off just about everybody - including the press. This, combined with the fact he played across the river from the greatest assembly of baseball talent in history, didn't endear him to too many - which is why his induction into the Hall was so unfairly delayed.

      Brooklyn hated him. (The City that is, not just the team.)

      Maybe he was just the target of mischaracterization by a Yankee-friendly press, though.

      He made a fortune as a businessman, living out his years in Jacksonville.
      Last edited by Proctor, CF; 04-17-2008, 01:04 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        He didn't get along that well with McGraw, and McGraw offered him the manager's post with the Giants' when he stepped aside for health reasons.

        Later, when asked what he thought about Brooklyn's chances to win a pennant, he tried to give a clever, witty response, for once.

        He quipped, "Is Brooklyn still in the league?" That didn't endear him to Brooklyn's fans. And so later that season, when the Giants went to play a game there, the fans hollered all game, "Yeah, we're still in the league!"

        They beat the Giants, and the Giants lost a close pennant race.

        He owned/operated Bill Terry Buick dealership in Jacksonville, FL till he died January 9, 1989. Buried in Evergreen Cemetery in Jacksonville, FL.

        Comment


        • #5
          In another thread, I was speaking about standard OPS+ numbers.

          One of the exceptions I wanted to note was Bill Terry, who I think has taken quite a beating in the general baseball "advanced" group, led by the Bill James articles on him. Ponder these home/road splits: (edit: not my primary point)

          Home: 0.330/0.382/0.487
          Road: 0.352/0.403/0.525

          Note that his BA and number of doubles were significantly impacted at home. His triples, homers, and walks were constant. If he had a normal home BA, he likely would have jumped from having the 15th highest BA of all time to top 3 or 4, behinds only Cobb, Hornsby and perhaps Joe Jackson.

          Between his bat and great glove, his results look a lot like Tony Gwynn. Yes Gwynn played RF, but Terry was a great defender and didn't put on an extra 40-50 pounds.


          Besides the baseball element, I find Terry an interesting guy because he got a late start in MLB because in the early 1920's, he was happily married with a newborn child and he was happy working for a living, in the town he wanted, and was able to play on the company baseball team. He had to be convinced by John McGraw to play baseball for the Giants. McGraw had to pay Terry's price for him to relocate from a happy domestic situation! Imagine that today!

          Due to this, I'm pretty convinced that Terry could have had two more MLB seasons if the cards had been different. At least one for sure. A very complex and intelligent man too.
          Last edited by Toledo Inquisition; 04-28-2019, 05:47 PM.
          Jim Palmer said about his longtime manager Earl Weaver: The only thing Earl Weaver knows about big league pitching is that he couldn't hit it.
          Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

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          Comment


          • #6
            I think it's George Sisler who has been downgraded by 'advanced' stats moreso than Terry. I get the feeling people regard Terry as a solid HOFer, with Sisler being more a borderline pick.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
              In another thread, I was speaking about standard OPS+ numbers.

              One of the exceptions I wanted to note was Bill Terry, who I think has taken quite a beating in the general baseball "advanced" group, led by the Bill James articles on him. Ponder these home/road splits:

              Home: 0.330/0.382/0.487
              Road: 0.352/0.403/0.525


              Note that his BA and number of doubles were significantly impacted at home. His triples, homers, and walks were constant. If he had a normal home BA, he likely would have jumped from having the 15th highest BA of all time to top 3 or 4, behinds only Cobb, Hornsby and perhaps Joe Jackson.

              Between his bat and great glove, his results look a lot like Tony Gwynn. Yes Gwynn played RF, but Terry was a great defender and didn't put on an extra 40-50 pounds.


              Besides the baseball element, I find Terry an interesting guy because he got a late start in MLB because in the early 1920's, he was happily married with a newborn child and he was happy working for a living, in the town he wanted, and was able to play on the company baseball team. He had to be convinced by John McGraw to play baseball for the Giants. McGraw had to pay Terry's price for him to relocate from a happy domestic situation! Imagine that today!

              Due to this, I'm pretty convinced that Terry could have had two more MLB seasons if the cards had been different. At least one for sure. A very complex and intelligent man too.
              Great points Toledo. I never knew this. Gives me a greater appreciation for Bill Terry the ball player. I believe I think more highly of him than most around here to begin with. He and Frank Chance because I take player/managing into account. Terry and Chance were excellent managers; they are 24th & 25th among my top first basemen. I also didn't know that this was the reason Terry got off to a late start but I did remember he used to pitch. Where do you place Terry among first basemen all-time?

              Originally posted by willshad View Post
              I think it's George Sisler who has been downgraded by 'advanced' stats moreso than Terry. I get the feeling people regard Terry as a solid HOFer, with Sisler being more a borderline pick.
              I agree appreciation for Sisler has really waned here. Especially since Burgess passed away. There was nothing Sisler couldn't do on the ball field. Hit for average and power, field and play around the bag, run, steal, throw, pitch. His biography The Sizzler is phenomenal and gave me a great appreciation for his all-around talent. He was by all accounts a good guy too. In the spirit of the above response...

              19. George Sisler
              20. Todd Helton
              21. Rafael Palmeiro
              22. Roger Connor
              23. Fred McGriff
              24. Bill Terry
              25. Frank Chance
              Last edited by bluesky5; 04-26-2019, 09:01 PM.
              "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

              Comment


              • #8
                When I started following baseball around 1977 I reads lots of baseball books. To me George Sisler and Bill Terry were the epitome of "Old Timey" baseball stars. I marveled at their .400 batting averages and I memorized that they held the all time respective league records for hits in a single season (257 for Sisler and 254 for Terry). For some reason I loved those hit records. Only seven men have gotten 250+ hits in a season. Six of those men did it between 1920-1930.
                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                Comment


                • #9
                  So who is generally considered the better of the two, between Sisler and Terry? I see that Sisler actually has more WAR than Terry, but far less WAA, due to the second part of his career. I think Sisler had the better peak, seven great years, but nothing else, while Terry couldn't quite match that peak, but had 11-12 good years. To me, it's close.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

                    Great points Toledo. I never knew this. Gives me a greater appreciation for Bill Terry the ball player.


                    He also sees one of the largest jumps from raw OPS+ as his rrOPS+ is eight points higher (144) putting him in the company of Bagwell and Greenberg. For perspective, Piazza has a seven point jump and Gehrig five.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by willshad View Post
                      I think it's George Sisler who has been downgraded by 'advanced' stats moreso than Terry. I get the feeling people regard Terry as a solid HOFer, with Sisler being more a borderline pick.
                      That is only because Sisler had a 6-7 year peak and then did nothing after that. BBref WAR has him averaging OVER &7 WAR PER SEASON for his 6-year peak and 6.7 WAR for his 7-year peak. That is one of the highest 6-7 year peaks in history for a 1B. WAR has him top-5 in the league all 6 of those years several of those leading the league. WAR is absolutely NOT downgrading him. Since it is a counting stat, it is lower than guys who played longer and didn't fall off a cliff. It's the same reason why Sandy Koufax only has 50 WAR or so. And when people are evaluating these guys - they focus on how great they were at their peaks, NOT just their total WAR totals.

                      56 WAR for a guy with no second half-of-a-career and only 2000 games total is a GREAT number, all things considered. BBG WAR has him even a tad higher at 58 WAR. Almost every single person at the SBHOF has him in the HOF, minus Nerd (the one poster who only uses WAR) and Sockeye (doesn't use WAR at all and goes only by counting stats) and some guy named dwj who only had 140 people in his HOF. There is nothing to see here. There is literally ONE person on this site who thinks Sisler is not a HOFer because of his low WAR totals.
                      1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

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                      The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
                        In another thread, I was speaking about standard OPS+ numbers.

                        One of the exceptions I wanted to note was Bill Terry, who I think has taken quite a beating in the general baseball "advanced" group, led by the Bill James articles on him. Ponder these home/road splits:

                        Home: 0.330/0.382/0.487
                        Road: 0.352/0.403/0.525

                        Note that his BA and number of doubles were significantly impacted at home. His triples, homers, and walks were constant. If he had a normal home BA, he likely would have jumped from having the 15th highest BA of all time to top 3 or 4, behinds only Cobb, Hornsby and perhaps Joe Jackson.

                        Between his bat and great glove, his results look a lot like Tony Gwynn. Yes Gwynn played RF, but Terry was a great defender and didn't put on an extra 40-50 pounds.


                        Besides the baseball element, I find Terry an interesting guy because he got a late start in MLB because in the early 1920's, he was happily married with a newborn child and he was happy working for a living, in the town he wanted, and was able to play on the company baseball team. He had to be convinced by John McGraw to play baseball for the Giants. McGraw had to pay Terry's price for him to relocate from a happy domestic situation! Imagine that today!

                        Due to this, I'm pretty convinced that Terry could have had two more MLB seasons if the cards had been different. At least one for sure. A very complex and intelligent man too.
                        Again - Terry had 54 WAR in what was equivalent to about 11 full MLB seasons. How many WAR do you want to give a guy who only plays 11 years worth? He averaged a WHOPPING 5 WAR per full season for his career. Anyone who is docking him is going so solely because the HOF guys he is being compared with probably played a LOT more while also being very productive.

                        Going back to the SBHOF - only 3 people said he was not a HOFer - two of them are Tiny (and I mean tiny) Hall or Counting Stat Only guys. Again - there is ONE person on this site who is a Saber who doesn't think he is a HOFer. ONE. That was Jar of Flies.

                        Plus it is modern advanced stats (rrOPS+) mentioned above that has shown that more traditional stats like pure slugg. an OB% are UNDERVALUING Terry. It is ALSO modern stats (WPA and RE24) that show Terry was 50 runs better in high leverage situations than low. Lets' all take this moment to show our appreciation to modern stats...

                        ...thank you, advanced stats! What would we do without you?

                        I am sure there are MANY others since Advanced Stats does not = WAR or Bill James 20-30 year old opinions.


                        As far as Bill James - Bill James writings on such matters are almost 20 years old now. If not from the original HBA which is (holy s**t) 33 years old now. Bill James has redacted a huge chunk of the things he said and like most of us*, has changed his mind about players many times over the past 20 years. I wouldn't put any stock into what Bill James said 20 years ago before DIPS, WAR, WPA, UZR/DR, Framing, wrC+, or any other current metric we use was available as a guiding light for modern analytics.

                        *Who am I kidding. A few of us.
                        Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 04-28-2019, 07:56 AM.
                        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                        1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                        1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                        The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                        The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

                          Again - Terry had 54 WAR in what was equivalent to about 11 full MLB seasons. How many WAR do you want to give a guy who only plays 11 years worth? He averaged a WHOPPING 5 WAR per full season for his career. Anyone who is docking him is going so solely because the HOF guys he is being compared with probably played a LOT more while also being very productive.

                          Going back to the SBHOF - only 3 people said he was not a HOFer - two of them are Tiny (and I mean tiny) Hall or Counting Stat Only guys. Again - there is ONE person on this site who is a Saber who doesn't think he is a HOFer. ONE. That was Jar of Flies.

                          Plus it is modern advanced stats (rrOPS+) mentioned above that has shown that more traditional stats like pure slugg. an OB% are UNDERVALUING Terry. It is ALSO modern stats (WPA and RE24) that show Terry was 50 runs better in high leverage situations than low. Lets' all take this moment to show our appreciation to modern stats...

                          ...thank you, advanced stats! What would we do without you?

                          I am sure there are MANY others since Advanced Stats does not = WAR or Bill James 20-30 year old opinions.


                          As far as Bill James - Bill James writings on such matters are almost 20 years old now. If not from the original HBA which is (holy s**t) 33 years old now. Bill James has redacted a huge chunk of the things he said and like most of us*, has changed his mind about players many times over the past 20 years. I wouldn't put any stock into what Bill James said 20 years ago before DIPS, WAR, WPA, UZR/DR, Framing, wrC+, or any other current metric we use was available as a guiding light for modern analytics.

                          *Who am I kidding. A few of us.
                          With Terry, I see a glut of 1930s candidates, moving Bill to the contributor side allowed me to elect a pure player in his stead.

                          Guys that could be kicked out in favor of Terry: Ray Brown, Dizzy Dean, Billy Herman, Bob Johnson, Mule Suttles (latest data is quite unflattering/could swap 1B here).
                          Guys with good cases I've still left short of Bill: Earl Averill, Cool Papa Bell, Tommy Bridges, Perucho Cepeda, Tony Lazzeri, Joe Medwick.

                          As you note, Retrosheet now has clutch scores covering Terry's career that weren't available a year or two ago, 4.9 + wins is rather impressive/something that I wasn't considering at last update, the rrOPS+ shows him as being robbed of 8 wins.

                          First legit question for me is: How good was he defensively, 14 wins at Baseball Gauge, 7 wins at Baseball Reference, 3 wins at Tom Thress...from reading the book on Michael Humphreys DRA/Baseball Gauge defensive metric, Michael noted the challenges with the Polo Grounds and Terry likely benefiting from numerous "easier" putouts that would be foul balls in other ballparks. Somewhere in the Thress/B/R probably more appropriate evaluation.

                          Second question: Bill was faced with an onslaught of excellent 1920s/30s first base competition, so he didn't give teams an edge per se vis a vis 1B value. This brings his Tom Thress stats down below the borderline, though not all games are available from Retrosheet for this time era, so some estimates are needed.

                          I'm awaiting the Hall of Miller and Eric's negro league selections, but at this point, I'd be fine with bumping Suttles for Terry.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

                            With Terry, I see a glut of 1930s candidates, moving Bill to the contributor side allowed me to elect a pure player in his stead.

                            Guys that could be kicked out in favor of Terry: Ray Brown, Dizzy Dean, Billy Herman, Bob Johnson, Mule Suttles (latest data is quite unflattering/could swap 1B here).
                            Guys with good cases I've still left short of Bill: Earl Averill, Cool Papa Bell, Tommy Bridges, Perucho Cepeda, Tony Lazzeri, Joe Medwick.

                            As you note, Retrosheet now has clutch scores covering Terry's career that weren't available a year or two ago, 4.9 + wins is rather impressive/something that I wasn't considering at last update, the rrOPS+ shows him as being robbed of 8 wins.

                            First legit question for me is: How good was he defensively, 14 wins at Baseball Gauge, 7 wins at Baseball Reference, 3 wins at Tom Thress...from reading the book on Michael Humphreys DRA/Baseball Gauge defensive metric, Michael noted the challenges with the Polo Grounds and Terry likely benefiting from numerous "easier" putouts that would be foul balls in other ballparks. Somewhere in the Thress/B/R probably more appropriate evaluation.

                            Second question: Bill was faced with an onslaught of excellent 1920s/30s first base competition, so he didn't give teams an edge per se vis a vis 1B value. This brings his Tom Thress stats down below the borderline, though not all games are available from Retrosheet for this time era, so some estimates are needed.

                            I'm awaiting the Hall of Miller and Eric's negro league selections, but at this point, I'd be fine with bumping Suttles for Terry.
                            + 8 wins for rrOPS nd say 3 wins for WPA/LI is + 11 wins. That puts him at 65 WAR in a VERY short career. that is SO far in the HOF, that I don;t see how a few smallish miscalculations re: his defense is going to push him out. Plus - if there happened to be a few more HOF caliber 1B from his era...so be it, IMHO. Plus - why can't you just add him in? Why do you have to kick somebody out?
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

                              + 8 wins for rrOPS nd say 3 wins for WPA/LI is + 11 wins. That puts him at 65 WAR in a VERY short career. that is SO far in the HOF, that I don;t see how a few smallish miscalculations re: his defense is going to push him out. Plus - if there happened to be a few more HOF caliber 1B from his era...so be it, IMHO. Plus - why can't you just add him in? Why do you have to kick somebody out?
                              Trying to layout my previous dilemma, your evidence is overwhelming. As to kicking someone out, I don't want to overrate an era and the 30s are the most populated time until I reach the 70s.
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