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  • Puckett Among CFers?

    Where do you rank Kirby Puckett among CFers. I have him ranked 8th. His career was cut short in his prime, but he packed a lot of production into those 12 years.
    38
    Top 5
    0.00%
    0
    Top 10
    26.32%
    10
    Top 15
    50.00%
    19
    Top 20
    13.16%
    5
    Outside the Top 20
    10.53%
    4

  • #2
    I thought Kirby was flashy and flamboyant, but I have always questioned is HoF status. I am not sure where to put him in history.
    Probably not top 10.
    1968 and 1984, the greatest ever.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Tigerfan1974
      I thought Kirby was flashy and flamboyant, but I have always questioned is HoF status. I am not sure where to put him in history.
      Probably not top 10.
      I always think the CF rankings are very interesting. It's very top-heavy, and then after the 7th spot, there seems to be a huge drop. The top 5 is arguably 5 players that rank among the 15 best to have ever played at any position - Mays, Cobb, Mantle, Speaker, DiMaggio. Then we have Griffey Jr and Snider who really aren't that far behind, and then a huge drop to a pool of guys that are difficult to distinguish. Guys like Puckett, Doby, Averill, Murphy, Dawson, Wynn, Ashburn, Berger, Pinson, Roush, Carey, Cedeno, Wilson, Lynn.

      I think of this second tier, Puckett rises to top. His career was short, but he had more hits in his for 10 years than anyone ever. In just 12 seasons, he had 2300 hits and a .318 average, that's pretty impressive. He had some power, he could field, and he had an excellent chance to zoom well past 3000 hits.

      But like I said, a lot of these guys are so clumped together, I can definitely see arguments for Puckett dropping a few spots.

      Comment


      • #4
        --The 7 guys XX mentions, plus Billy Hamilton definately rank ahead of Puckett. Once past them, he has as good an argument for filling the one of the last 2 top 10 spots as anyone. Except if you count Negro Leaguers then Charleston is ahead and Puckett is fighting for that last spot.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Tigerfan1974
          I thought Kirby was flashy and flamboyant, but I have always questioned is HoF status. I am not sure where to put him in history.
          Probably not top 10.
          I think his HOF status is unquestionable. I think Puckett is actually very underrated. He was a superb offensive and defensive player, and definitely one of the top 5 players of his time.

          Among all-time CFers? Hard to pinpoint exactly where he should be, but I wouldn't debate anyone who thinks he is top 10 all-time.
          Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by leecemark
            --The 7 guys XX mentions, plus Billy Hamilton definately rank ahead of Puckett. Once past them, he has as good an argument for filling the one of the last 2 top 10 spots as anyone. Except if you count Negro Leaguers then Charleston is ahead and Puckett is fighting for that last spot.
            You probably hit it right on the nose here.
            Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't have him top 10. I accept that he got extra credit from the voters because of the way his career ended. I have no problem with him being in the HoF.
              Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

              Comment


              • #8
                1.Willie Mays
                2.Oscar Charleston
                3.Mickey Mantle
                4.Ty Cobb
                5.Tris Speaker
                6.Joe DiMaggio
                7.Christobal Torriente
                8.Jimmy Wynn
                9.Duke Snider
                10.Ken Griffey Jr.
                11.Billy Hamilton
                12.Larry Doby
                13.Kirby Puckett
                14.Cesar Cedeno
                15.Wally Berger
                16.Dale Murphy
                17.Cool Papa Bell
                18.Richie Ashburn
                19.Fred Lynn
                20.Amos Otis
                21.Spot Poles
                22.Vada Pinson
                23.Earl Averill
                24.Max Carey
                25.Eric Davis

                I go back and forth and Puckett and Doby. They are both pretty similar players really, with almost the same value. Doby was a very good CFer for a few years in the Negro Leagues before he came to the majors though, so he does deserve some extra longevity, which is probably enough to lift him above Puckett.

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                • #9
                  I have Kirby in the top 20, but only barely. His defense was flashy at times, but overall not that far above average IMO. SabrMatt...where do you have Kirby defensively?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Puckett's offense by PCA:
                    Code:
                    Age	Yr	OWC	PA
                    23	1984	1.87	583
                    24	1985	4.72	744
                    25	1986	9.70	723
                    26	1987	10.19	668
                    27	1988	8.95	691
                    28	1989	7.27	684
                    29	1990	5.69	615
                    30	1991	5.21	661
                    31	1992	8.35	696
                    32	1993	7.49	682
                    33	1994	6.63	482
                    34	1995	7.53	602
                    Good solid hitter by the numbers, it's very unfortunate that his career is so short.

                    Puckett's defensive career:
                    Code:
                    Age	Yr	ADWC	PRG
                    23	1984	7.83	134
                    24	1985	3.78	162
                    25	1986	1.99	156
                    26	1987	0.94	145
                    27	1988	6.07	153
                    28	1989	4.53	151
                    29	1990	2.78	138
                    30	1991	2.63	153
                    31	1992	3.11	146
                    32	1993	0.56	135
                    33	1994	0.19	94
                    34	1995	0.08	104
                    Wow...this is...weird. It's clear he had great defensive talents...it's very strange that his best years appear to be when the Twins were not good and his worst years happened when they WERE good...that's just...bizarre. This is also the most variability I've ever seen in a player's defensive line. I think the numbers are generally correct for his decline phase...he did decline rather badly on defense in his last few seasons probabl6y owing to increasing vision problems and the fact that he got bigger physically. Similar decline occurs in his hitting line though not as pronounced.

                    Short career hurts his Greatness Index...but here are the figures I have:
                    Code:
                    Phase	Ps-Rk	GI
                    Offense	24	207.704
                    Defense 26      91.81
                    Total   19      299.52
                    I realize his career ended early for reasons beyond his control, so while, sabermetrically I have him ranked 19th among Career CFers, I tend to place him 15th or 16th in my real-world rankings...usually sixteenth...

                    If he'd had a longer career, I suspect his defensive ratings would have been much worse overall because part of the reason he declined was the shape of his body so I tend to fight the urge to assume that great things would have continued for Puckett had he not had those eye and brain problems.

                    Nonetheless...for such a short career, it's remarkable he does this well by any system. He will be missed.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by leecemark
                      --The 7 guys XX mentions, plus Billy Hamilton definately rank ahead of Puckett. Once past them, he has as good an argument for filling the one of the last 2 top 10 spots as anyone. Except if you count Negro Leaguers then Charleston is ahead and Puckett is fighting for that last spot.
                      I always forget to include the 19th century guys in my rankings. If I included 19th century players, Hamilton would probably come in my top 10.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SABR Matt

                        Short career hurts his Greatness Index...but here are the figures I have:
                        Code:
                        Phase	Ps-Rk	GI
                        Offense	24	207.704
                        Defense 26      91.81
                        Total   19      299.52
                        I realize his career ended early for reasons beyond his control, so while, sabermetrically I have him ranked 19th among Career CFers, I tend to place him 15th or 16th in my real-world rankings...usually sixteenth...

                        If he'd had a longer career, I suspect his defensive ratings would have been much worse overall because part of the reason he declined was the shape of his body so I tend to fight the urge to assume that great things would have continued for Puckett had he not had those eye and brain problems.

                        Nonetheless...for such a short career, it's remarkable he does this well by any system. He will be missed.
                        Matt, if you don't mind could you show us a chart rating CFers for offense, defense, and total like you did with the shortstops?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have Puckett ranked 7th all-time, behind the top 5 and Griffey. That includes Charleston who is above him, and Bell who is below him. There is a definite drop between Griffey and Puckett for me - 21 total (32nd and 53rd), only 17 if you take out pitchers, but that is still significant.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Top 25 CFs by the GI method with PCA
                            Code:
                            First	Last    	Ps-Rk	OP-Rk	DP-Rk	GI
                            Willie	Mays    	1	2	10	703.919
                            Mickey	Mantle  	2	1	104	686.033
                            Tris	Speaker 	3	4	2	624.795
                            Ty	Cobb    	4	3	49	622.661
                            Joe	DiMaggio	5	5	53	476.03
                            Richie	Ashburn 	6	11	5	403.355
                            Max	Carey   	7	20	1	389.158
                            Duke	Snider  	8	6	101	388.238
                            Billy	Hamilton	9	9	24	382.392
                            Jimmy	Wynn    	10	7	116	363.499
                            Ken	Griffey Jr.	11	8	120	356.767
                            Cesar	Cedeno  	12	10	62	343.256
                            Brett	Butler  	13	15	13	332.825
                            Fred	Lynn    	14	12	75	322.416
                            Amos	Otis    	15	22	11	316.499
                            Vada	Pinson  	16	17	35	312.461
                            Earl	Averill  	17	13	124	300.691
                            Kirby	Puckett 	18	24	26	299.518
                            Larry	Doby    	19	14	88	298.19
                            Willie	Davis    	20	21	47	294.927
                            Jim	Edmonds 	21	19	58	290.112
                            Paul	Hines   	22	32	14	289.457
                            Andruw	Jones   	23	87	3	285.948
                            Cy	Williams	24	23	51	285.735
                            Bernie	Williams	25	16	111	284.176

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Puckett has the highest career RH batting AVG since Joe Dimaggio. Him and Joe Medwick are one of the few players to have had at least 230 hits and 100RBI's.......had good pop in his time.....6 gold gloves...10 straight years as an all star...he averaged 209 hits, 38 doubles,19 HR's and 99 RBI's. With that said Id rank him in the top ten.
                              "I was pitching one day when my glasses clouded up on me. I took them off to polish them. When I looked up to the plate, I saw Jimmie Foxx. The sight of him terrified me so much that I haven't been able to wear glasses since." - Left Gomez

                              "(Lou) Gehrig never learned that a ballplayer couldn't be good every day." - Hank Gowdy

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