Puckett Among CFers?

[DoubleX]

Where do you rank Kirby Puckett among CFers. I have him ranked 8th. His career was cut short in his prime, but he packed a lot of production into those 12 years.

[Tigerfan1974]

I thought Kirby was flashy and flamboyant, but I have always questioned is HoF status. I am not sure where to put him in history.
Probably not top 10.

[DoubleX]

I thought Kirby was flashy and flamboyant, but I have always questioned is HoF status. I am not sure where to put him in history.
Probably not top 10.

I always think the CF rankings are very interesting. It's very top-heavy, and then after the 7th spot, there seems to be a huge drop. The top 5 is arguably 5 players that rank among the 15 best to have ever played at any position - Mays, Cobb, Mantle, Speaker, DiMaggio. Then we have Griffey Jr and Snider who really aren't that far behind, and then a huge drop to a pool of guys that are difficult to distinguish. Guys like Puckett, Doby, Averill, Murphy, Dawson, Wynn, Ashburn, Berger, Pinson, Roush, Carey, Cedeno, Wilson, Lynn.

I think of this second tier, Puckett rises to top. His career was short, but he had more hits in his for 10 years than anyone ever. In just 12 seasons, he had 2300 hits and a .318 average, that's pretty impressive. He had some power, he could field, and he had an excellent chance to zoom well past 3000 hits.

But like I said, a lot of these guys are so clumped together, I can definitely see arguments for Puckett dropping a few spots.

[leecemark]

--The 7 guys XX mentions, plus Billy Hamilton definately rank ahead of Puckett. Once past them, he has as good an argument for filling the one of the last 2 top 10 spots as anyone. Except if you count Negro Leaguers then Charleston is ahead and Puckett is fighting for that last spot.

[torez77]

I thought Kirby was flashy and flamboyant, but I have always questioned is HoF status. I am not sure where to put him in history.
Probably not top 10.

I think his HOF status is unquestionable. I think Puckett is actually very underrated. He was a superb offensive and defensive player, and definitely one of the top 5 players of his time.

Among all-time CFers? Hard to pinpoint exactly where he should be, but I wouldn't debate anyone who thinks he is top 10 all-time.

[torez77]

--The 7 guys XX mentions, plus Billy Hamilton definately rank ahead of Puckett. Once past them, he has as good an argument for filling the one of the last 2 top 10 spots as anyone. Except if you count Negro Leaguers then Charleston is ahead and Puckett is fighting for that last spot.

You probably hit it right on the nose here.

[KCGHOST]

I don't have him top 10. I accept that he got extra credit from the voters because of the way his career ended. I have no problem with him being in the HoF.

[538280]

1.Willie Mays
2.Oscar Charleston
3.Mickey Mantle
4.Ty Cobb
5.Tris Speaker
6.Joe DiMaggio
7.Christobal Torriente
8.Jimmy Wynn
9.Duke Snider
10.Ken Griffey Jr.
11.Billy Hamilton
12.Larry Doby
13.Kirby Puckett
14.Cesar Cedeno
15.Wally Berger
16.Dale Murphy
17.Cool Papa Bell
18.Richie Ashburn
19.Fred Lynn
20.Amos Otis
21.Spot Poles
22.Vada Pinson
23.Earl Averill
24.Max Carey
25.Eric Davis

I go back and forth and Puckett and Doby. They are both pretty similar players really, with almost the same value. Doby was a very good CFer for a few years in the Negro Leagues before he came to the majors though, so he does deserve some extra longevity, which is probably enough to lift him above Puckett.

[baseballPAP]

I have Kirby in the top 20, but only barely. His defense was flashy at times, but overall not that far above average IMO. SabrMatt...where do you have Kirby defensively?

[SABR Matt]

Puckett's offense by PCA:

Age	Yr	OWC	PA
23	1984	1.87	583
24	1985	4.72	744
25	1986	9.70	723
26	1987	10.19	668
27	1988	8.95	691
28	1989	7.27	684
29	1990	5.69	615
30	1991	5.21	661
31	1992	8.35	696
32	1993	7.49	682
33	1994	6.63	482
34	1995	7.53	602

Good solid hitter by the numbers, it's very unfortunate that his career is so short.

Puckett's defensive career:

Age	Yr	ADWC	PRG
23	1984	7.83	134
24	1985	3.78	162
25	1986	1.99	156
26	1987	0.94	145
27	1988	6.07	153
28	1989	4.53	151
29	1990	2.78	138
30	1991	2.63	153
31	1992	3.11	146
32	1993	0.56	135
33	1994	0.19	94
34	1995	0.08	104

Wow...this is...weird. It's clear he had great defensive talents...it's very strange that his best years appear to be when the Twins were not good and his worst years happened when they WERE good...that's just...bizarre. This is also the most variability I've ever seen in a player's defensive line. I think the numbers are generally correct for his decline phase...he did decline rather badly on defense in his last few seasons probabl6y owing to increasing vision problems and the fact that he got bigger physically. Similar decline occurs in his hitting line though not as pronounced.

Short career hurts his Greatness Index...but here are the figures I have:

Phase	Ps-Rk	GI
Offense	24	207.704
Defense 26      91.81
Total   19      299.52

I realize his career ended early for reasons beyond his control, so while, sabermetrically I have him ranked 19th among Career CFers, I tend to place him 15th or 16th in my real-world rankings...usually sixteenth...

If he'd had a longer career, I suspect his defensive ratings would have been much worse overall because part of the reason he declined was the shape of his body so I tend to fight the urge to assume that great things would have continued for Puckett had he not had those eye and brain problems.

Nonetheless...for such a short career, it's remarkable he does this well by any system. He will be missed.

[DoubleX]

--The 7 guys XX mentions, plus Billy Hamilton definately rank ahead of Puckett. Once past them, he has as good an argument for filling the one of the last 2 top 10 spots as anyone. Except if you count Negro Leaguers then Charleston is ahead and Puckett is fighting for that last spot.

I always forget to include the 19th century guys in my rankings. If I included 19th century players, Hamilton would probably come in my top 10.

[538280]

Short career hurts his Greatness Index...but here are the figures I have:

Phase	Ps-Rk	GI
Offense	24	207.704
Defense 26      91.81
Total   19      299.52

I realize his career ended early for reasons beyond his control, so while, sabermetrically I have him ranked 19th among Career CFers, I tend to place him 15th or 16th in my real-world rankings...usually sixteenth...

If he'd had a longer career, I suspect his defensive ratings would have been much worse overall because part of the reason he declined was the shape of his body so I tend to fight the urge to assume that great things would have continued for Puckett had he not had those eye and brain problems.

Nonetheless...for such a short career, it's remarkable he does this well by any system. He will be missed.

Matt, if you don't mind could you show us a chart rating CFers for offense, defense, and total like you did with the shortstops?

[Edgartohof]

I have Puckett ranked 7th all-time, behind the top 5 and Griffey. That includes Charleston who is above him, and Bell who is below him. There is a definite drop between Griffey and Puckett for me - 21 total (32nd and 53rd), only 17 if you take out pitchers, but that is still significant.

[SABR Matt]

Top 25 CFs by the GI method with PCA

First	Last    	Ps-Rk	OP-Rk	DP-Rk	GI
Willie	Mays    	1	2	10	703.919
Mickey	Mantle  	2	1	104	686.033
Tris	Speaker 	3	4	2	624.795
Ty	Cobb    	4	3	49	622.661
Joe	DiMaggio	5	5	53	476.03
Richie	Ashburn 	6	11	5	403.355
Max	Carey   	7	20	1	389.158
Duke	Snider  	8	6	101	388.238
Billy	Hamilton	9	9	24	382.392
Jimmy	Wynn    	10	7	116	363.499
Ken	Griffey Jr.	11	8	120	356.767
Cesar	Cedeno  	12	10	62	343.256
Brett	Butler  	13	15	13	332.825
Fred	Lynn    	14	12	75	322.416
Amos	Otis    	15	22	11	316.499
Vada	Pinson  	16	17	35	312.461
Earl	Averill  	17	13	124	300.691
Kirby	Puckett 	18	24	26	299.518
Larry	Doby    	19	14	88	298.19
Willie	Davis    	20	21	47	294.927
Jim	Edmonds 	21	19	58	290.112
Paul	Hines   	22	32	14	289.457
Andruw	Jones   	23	87	3	285.948
Cy	Williams	24	23	51	285.735
Bernie	Williams	25	16	111	284.176

[Myankee4life]

Puckett has the highest career RH batting AVG since Joe Dimaggio. Him and Joe Medwick are one of the few players to have had at least 230 hits and 100RBI's.......had good pop in his time.....6 gold gloves...10 straight years as an all star...he averaged 209 hits, 38 doubles,19 HR's and 99 RBI's. With that said Id rank him in the top ten.