How will you rank Bonds now?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Steroid use was not against the rules of baseball for quite a long time.

Apparently everyone in MLB received this in 1991.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/etick...emo=1991&num=1

[cup2006sensrule]

I think Barry Bonds was one of the greatest players ever before he started taking steroids. And since he started taking stroids he went from being among the best to the very best. Since 1998 Bonds has been the best player maybe ever. And he has probably been on steroids. But who has taken steroids and been as good as Bonds. No one, not even close. I think that well over one hundred players used steroids and none had the results that Bonds did. 73 home runs, unbelievable walk totals because every pitcher knew he was the best player and hitter in the world. Everyone used steroids or could have from 1998-2005. Everyone and tons of players did so. Bonds did it and he was clearly by far the best player in the world for 5 or 6 years after he was 35 years old. Steroids are bad but tons of players did it. He is one of the greatest players ever to play the game of baseball before steroids and after. He was the best player of his time before steroids and the best player on steroids. McGwire and Sosa were on steroids and Bonds was too but Bonds was better. Bonds will probably die before he is 60 years old due to the complications from Steroid abuse.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I think Barry Bonds was one of the greatest players ever before he started taking steroids. And since he started taking stroids he went from being among the best to the very best. Since 1998 Bonds has been the best player maybe ever. And he has probably been on steroids. But who has taken steroids and been as good as Bonds. No one, not even close. I think that well over one hundred players used steroids and none had the results that Bonds did. 73 home runs, unbelievable walk totals because every pitcher knew he was the best player and hitter in the world. Everyone used steroids or could have from 1998-2005. Everyone and tons of players did so. Bonds did it and he was clearly by far the best player in the world for 5 or 6 years after he was 35 years old. Steroids are bad but tons of players did it. He is one of the greatest players ever to play the game of baseball before steroids and after. He was the best player of his time before steroids and the best player on steroids. McGwire and Sosa were on steroids and Bonds was too but Bonds was better. Bonds will probably die before he is 60 years old due to the complications from Steroid abuse.

Wow.

You touched on every single angle of the hollow defense. Nice work.

[Ubiquitous]

The investigation would have clear limits. Performance enhancers over the last 15 years or so. I would think at your job

So everyone before that gets a free pass becuase we wouldn't want to have to change the way we think about our past or our heroes now would we?

Think of it this way. Say you have kids, all your kids are doing illegal things. Drugs, drug-dealing, stealing, steroids, assault. Whatever. But you personally don't have a policy against the activity. Now, when you find out what you're kids are doing, you're not going to want to investigate and find out what they were doing? You're just going to say, "hey, whatever. That was in the past, I'll implement some pseudo-policy to try to scare them from doing it in the future." What does that say about you as a parent? What does that say about your integrity? Are you just going to expect people to say, "so what if you're kids broke the law, you didn't have a policy so it doesn't matter what they did and it's not worth you finding out what happened?"

A kid and a revolving sets of players are two completely different things. I don't need to know what Canseco did in 1988 or House did in 1971 in order to stop Ben Broussard from doing it today or tomorrow. Being able to point the finger at a stat from 1992 and call it dirty doesn't do a thing about tomorrow and preventing it from happening again. All it becomes is a way to put our heroes back on a pedastal, I personally don't believe most of them should be on there so I'm not as worried about the "integrity" of the game as some. Baseball is a form of entertainment it is not my mother or father and it is not my child. People want to change the past, to revise so that what they view and belief can become reality and that is comforting. Well you can't, blacks didn't play before 1947, we have a 162 game schedule, there was expansion. Thats life, we move on.

[Ubiquitous]

Apparently everyone in MLB received this in 1991.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/etick...emo=1991&num=1

everyone recieved the dreaded file not found screen?

[west coast orange and black]

now, i love the game of baseball, but cup2006sensrule brings up something that is of great interest to me.

(welcome, c2006, by the way.)

it pains me that ballplayers have used substances to further their game. it pains me to think that some of my baseball heroes from the 60s have tainted numbers. but what pains me even more is the idea that many of these men, for a variety of reasons, shortened their own healthy lives and affected the lives of their families and friends.
reasons to cheat, such as (short-sighted) selfishness and greed, are learned behavior.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

everyone recieved the dreaded file not found screen?

lol, try this

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/etick...emo=1991&num=1

[west coast orange and black]

i was going to ask, ubiquitous, "how do we move on without addressing the past?"
then i realized that the "we" must first be identified.

mlb seems to have no concern at all about what happened years ago, and only little concern about the recent past and the present.

the fans, on the other hand, look to baseball as many things and for many things.

[DoubleX]

So everyone before that gets a free pass becuase we wouldn't want to have to change the way we think about our past or our heroes now would we?



A kid and a revolving sets of players are two completely different things. I don't need to know what Canseco did in 1988 or House did in 1971 in order to stop Ben Broussard from doing it today or tomorrow. Being able to point the finger at a stat from 1992 and call it dirty doesn't do a thing about tomorrow and preventing it from happening again. All it becomes is a way to put our heroes back on a pedastal, I personally don't believe most of them should be on there so I'm not as worried about the "integrity" of the game as some. Baseball is a form of entertainment it is not my mother or father and it is not my child. People want to change the past, to revise so that what they view and belief can become reality and that is comforting. Well you can't, blacks didn't play before 1947, we have a 162 game schedule, there was expansion. Thats life, we move on.

Alright guy, I guess we'll just condone all the illegal activities of the past. You're totally right, an organization in which a large portion of its employees were committing illegal activities, and in turn helped the organization to profit, and in turn sent majorly wrong messages to society about how to get ahead, should have no interest in attempting to discovering what went wrong. The organization has absolutely no interest in its integrity and the message it sends to society, especially considering that it is in a position to send very major messages to society.

You're totally right dude, we should just disregard all of history!!!! What's the point in learning from the mistakes of the past? You're absolutely right, there is no sense in trying to restore tarnished integrity. You're right, there was segregation before 1947, so I guess we shouldn't waste our time lamenting about what a shame it was and trying to learn about the players the were excluded.

As far as I'm concerned, nothing at all happened before today, particularly whatever mistakes happened. Heck, you went killed two people and robbed a bank last week? I don't care! It was in the past. Nothing to be learned by it. No one has an interest in discovering the extent and impact of the wrongs of the past. There is nothing to be gained or learned by delving into history. When integrity has been blemished, heck let's just ignore what happened! You're right dude. Every day, we each get a clean new slate.

There's a Mr. McGwire over here that you might want to talk with.

In all seriousness, people who don't care to learn about the past and learn from the past, and fail to see the value in such an exercise, are not worth my time. So I'm bailing on this conversation. Later.

[Brian McKenna]

Digging up the past won't solve anything.

progressive post

yeah you're right - no one has ever learned from the past - rules and policy never been set in response to past abuses - goals for the future have never been established while reflecting on the past - no one is interested in the past - there are no historians - no one can think beyond today or into yesterday - management has never been toppled by past events - future approaches never reflect historical lessons learned - one industry has never learned from another - society has never effected itself, never learned, never progressed

the media should just shut up - all researchers should stop what they are doing - today is a new day - let's embrace it - forget about yesterday - let's just hug big old barry and forgive it all - i mean it's not like anyone was ever hurt by it - screw the pitchers and any of the puny little middle infielders that used to dot the diamond - let's welcome the blutos, the home run and the slew of strikeouts

let's leave all self reflection to the guy next to us at the bar - we know it all already

[Ubiquitous]

lol, try this

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/etick...emo=1991&num=1

Yes and the owners and players the put a very specific list of banned substances into the CBA, and they very obviously left steroids off that list until the latest CBA put them on.

[DoubleX]

So when they investigate where do they stop? What do they look for? Do they just go after the modern bad guys, or do they look back into the 60's and 70's? Do they call up Jim Bouton to testify on the "vitamin" shots Mickey Mantle took? And on top of that what good will the investigation do? Did looking into the White Sox solve anything? Did the Dowd investigation solve anything? If anything once you polarize into a this guy is guilty this guy is innocent that is when the real muddling begins. There better off doing what they are doing now. Saying no drugs allowed from here on out and we are going to do testing and we are going to hand out punishments. Digging up the past won't solve anything, the arguments will still rage.

Just to follow-up again on this ridiculous comment about the White Sox, in that case, action that was retroactively minded did a ton towards re-establishing the game's integrity. Under your way of thinking, which seeks to disavow the mistakes of the past as valueless and not worth the time to investigate, the Black Sox should have been allowed to slide, because there would be no point in punishing them for things they did in the past. The game and its integrity had nothing to gain by exploring the conduct and reacting to it.

With that said, now I'm bailing for real.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

The fans, on the other hand, look to baseball as many things and for many things.

For sure, especially fans at a higher level than "casual."

To certain fans, the true impact and meaning of Baseball on all levels, can't really be put into words; it means that much.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Yes and the owners and players the put a very specific list of banned substances into the CBA, and they very obviously left steroids off that list until the latest CBA put them on.

Yes, and the non-medical use of roids was illegal in the US.

[Ubiquitous]

Sigh,
I never said that they shouldn't have punished the black sox what I said was that it didn't put the argue to rest. It still rages over 80 years later!

AS for DoubleX and BMk you either purposefully taking it to the extreme or misreading what I am saying. MLB is now banning steroids and other drugs, they are implementing testing, and imposing tough penalties for infractions. That is learning from the past! Going back and looking for all the players who might have had a connection with drugs is not learning from the past that is punishing the past. If you want to do that, I'm not stopping you. You want to write a book thats fine, I just don't see the need for MLB to go back and find guys from 1991 who did drugs. Nor do I see why we should only look for steroid users and why we should limit it to just modern players. If we want to expunge all the dirty marks caused by drugs then we should find them all. If we are here to protect the "sanctity" of the game and its records then we should expunge all the cheaters not the ones we happen to dislike the most or the ones that used drugs we dislike the most.