Best season of the following: New York Yankees

[Blackout]

why not get this overwith.

i'm switching things up for this:


Babe Ruth 1920 - 256 OPS+
Babe Ruth 1921 - 239 OPS+
Babe Ruth 1923 - 239 OPS+
Lou Gehrig 1927 - 221 OPS+
Lou Gehrig 1934 - 208 OPS+
Joe Dimaggio 1939 - 184 OPS+
Joe Dimaggio 1941 - 184 OPS+
Mickey Mantle 1956 - 210 OPS+
Mickey Mantle 1957 - 223 OPS+
Roger Maris 1961 - 167 OPS+
Bobby Murcer 1971 (just for kicks) - 181 OPS+
Alex Rodriguez 2007 - 177 OPS+
other (better be good)

[brett]

'23 by a slim margin over '20 and '21 for Ruth.

'23's 239 OPS+ matches '21 and was one of the best defensive years ever by a right fielder.

'20 is the best rate season but he played 10 fewer games.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I think before this one is over, if we get a good number of votes the battle will be between 1921 and 1923.

I like 1921 because it was the complete Babe Ruth, the best all around year he ever had. There were some seasons where he put up some higher numbers based on totals and percentages but in 1921 he was not far from some of his best in some other seasons.

Slugging 1921-------.846 his second best, .849 in 1920.
Ba. 1921---------.378 his second best, his best 1923 .398. Also .378 in 1924.
RC/Game 1921------17.90 his second best, his best 18.41 in 1920.
Sec. Ave.1921------.769-----1920.830
BPA 1921-----------.885 tied with his .885 in 1920
ISO 1921-----------.469----.473 IN 1920
Hits 1921-----------204------205 in 1923
Doubles1921--------44------45 in 1923
Home runs 1921-----59------60 in 1927 *one HR lost Aug.4 1921. Fan interference.
OPS 1921---------1.359------1.382 1920

You can see in the above stats that although not his best in 1921 but very close to any of his other seasons at his best.


His best in the following.
Triples --------------16
Runs---------------177
Rbi's---------------171
Total bases--------457
EBHs--------------119
RCAP--------------143
TPR----------------9.9

Only a fluke at the Polo Grounds, *fan intereference in 1921 denied him his first 60 home run season, awarded a double. Also had it been a home run it would have added to his total bases giving him 459 and raising his slugging to his highest .850.

I'm not going to evaluate on one stat OPS+, I like to look at the whole picture. He was at his best or second best in so many offensive stats in 1921, never put it all together in any one year as he did in 1921. Records still standing, 457 total bases, 119 EBHs and 177 runs scored. Babe never had a year like 1921, all around his best.

[bob]

To me its babe v babe. Id go for '23 over '21. Followed by Mantle '57 and Gehrig '27.

[brett]

I'm not going to evaluate on one stat OPS+, I like to look at the whole picture. He was at his best or second best in so many offensive stats in 1921, never put it all together in any one year as he did in 1921. Records still standing, 457 total bases, 119 EBHs and 177 runs scored. Babe never had a year like 1921, all around his best.

This may be true, but '23 was somewhat of an offensive backslide for the league.

In '21 the league averaged 5.12 runs per game and aside from Ruth hit 418 home runs. In '23 the league averaged 4.78 runs per game and aside from Ruth hit 401 home runs.

For example, his 41 home runs in '23 seem to pale compared to 59 in '21, but league adjusted slugging was down from .424 to .404. I am interested if this was due to perhaps fielders adjusting somewhat to live-ball changes.

Translated batting stats put his '23 home run total at 93% of the relative rate as '21 meaning that given 59 in '21 he might have hit 55 in '23 in the same setting. Translated batting stats, and equivalent average have '23 as a better offensive season.

Stat neutralization has them a little farther apart, but still has '23 at about 97% as good at '21 in combined relative on-base and slugging percentage, or in other words he had a 239 OPS+ in '21, and if he hit like '23 in '21 he would have had a 232 OPS+.

The thing that sets '23 apart is his 33 FRAA in the field. That's the highest total I can find in history for a corner outfielder. '21 was very good too in left. It is possible that because of the defensive responsibilities in YS that '21 was even better defensively. I tend to rate right fielders higher than left fielders, but probably not for YS. Ruth would have CLEARLY been deserving of a gold glove in '21 and '23.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

This may be true, but '23 was somewhat of an offensive backslide for the league.

In '21 the league averaged 5.12 runs per game and aside from Ruth hit 418 home runs. In '23 the league averaged 4.78 runs per game and aside from Ruth hit 401 home runs.

For example, his 41 home runs in '23 seem to pale compared to 59 in '21, but league adjusted slugging was down from .424 to .404. I am interested if this was due to perhaps fielders adjusting somewhat to live-ball changes.

Translated batting stats put his '23 home run total at 93% of the relative rate as '21 meaning that given 59 in '21 he might have hit 55 in '23 in the same setting. Translated batting stats, and equivalent average have '23 as a better offensive season.

Stat neutralization has them a little farther apart, but still has '23 at about 97% as good at '21 in combined relative on-base and slugging percentage, or in other words he had a 239 OPS+ in '21, and if he hit like '23 in '21 he would have had a 232 OPS+.

The thing that sets '23 apart is his 33 FRAA in the field. That's the highest total I can find in history for a corner outfielder. '21 was very good too in left. It is possible that because of the defensive responsibilities in YS that '21 was even better defensively. I tend to rate right fielders higher than left fielders, but probably not for YS. Ruth would have CLEARLY been deserving of a gold glove in '21 and '23.

I understand completely, some making the point that the gap between Ruth and the rest of the league was greater in 1923 even though he out up a good number of higher numbers in 1921.

The point in my previous post even if the above is true, Ruth being over the league by a wider margin in 1923, I'm looking at Ruth separate from the league average, and his overall numbers in 1921 were never matched in any season before or after 1921. If one chooses to put more importance on margin of over the league average OPS+, I can see that but I'm going on what his numbers alone were and in what season he reached his single season apex across the board.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

This may be true, but '23 was somewhat of an offensive backslide for the league.

In '21 the league averaged 5.12 runs per game and aside from Ruth hit 418 home runs. In '23 the league averaged 4.78 runs per game and aside from Ruth hit 401 home runs.

For example, his 41 home runs in '23 seem to pale compared to 59 in '21, but league adjusted slugging was down from .424 to .404. I am interested if this was due to perhaps fielders adjusting somewhat to live-ball changes.

Translated batting stats put his '23 home run total at 93% of the relative rate as '21 meaning that given 59 in '21 he might have hit 55 in '23 in the same setting. Translated batting stats, and equivalent average have '23 as a better offensive season.

Stat neutralization has them a little farther apart, but still has '23 at about 97% as good at '21 in combined relative on-base and slugging percentage, or in other words he had a 239 OPS+ in '21, and if he hit like '23 in '21 he would have had a 232 OPS+.
The thing that sets '23 apart is his 33 FRAA in the field. That's the highest total I can find in history for a corner outfielder. '21 was very good too in left. It is possible that because of the defensive responsibilities in YS that '21 was even better defensively. I tend to rate right fielders higher than left fielders, but probably not for YS. Ruth would have CLEARLY been deserving of a gold glove in '21 and '23.

Those are only projections, adjustments or a supposition what "may have" been, they may have been but for sure we will never know. I can only go on what actually did take place in 1921 and 1923.

Again I'm comparing Ruth the hitter and what was his best season overall regardless of what the league did. If it were just a few stats he did better in 1921 than 1923 or any other season the OPS+ view would have more meaning but his 1921 season was better than any other in a good number of stats and second to any other season in many others.

[brett]

The point in my previous post even if the above is true, Ruth being over the league by a wider margin in 1923, I'm looking at Ruth separate from the league average, and his overall numbers in 1921 were never matched in any season before or after 1921.

That's a good point. One way to look at it is that we don't know that it is possible for a player to hit better than he did in '21 regardless of the environment. Also, because of the sheer magnitude of the totals: 457 total bases and 353 times on base I wouldn't put any of Bonds' seasons above it even if they were clean.

By the way, Ruth pulled off what I consider to be the ultimate triple crown: slugging, on-base% and total bases in '21, '23, '24 and '26 (and also lead in times on base each year).

Hornsby did it 7 times, but lead in all 4 (Slg, OB%, total bases, times on base) 4 times.

Williams 5 times, ('42, '46, '47, '49 and '51), and in all 4 on 5 occasions, but lost his chance in '43-'45.

[brett]

What I really like about '23 is that in '20-'21 he may have been thought of as a fluke or anomaly in the system. He could have had the off-year in '22 and then disappeared, but he came back in '23 and possibly even exceeded his freakish '20 and '21 but with a little different approach. He seemed to have adapted and in '23 established himself as the force in the game for the long run.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

What I really like about '23 is that in '20-'21 he may have been thought of as a fluke or anomaly in the system. He could have had the off-year in '22 and then disappeared, but he came back in '23 and possibly even exceeded his freakish '20 and '21 but with a little different approach. He seemed to have adapted and in '23 established himself as the force in the game for the long run.

Not sure but I believe some where in the news archives I saw a comment Babe made going into the 1923 season, that he was going to go for more base hits, cut down on his swing, for that season. He was a great combo of a hitter/slugger that season. Reached base 379 times, most ever by any hitter.

[Blackout]

What I really like about '23 is that in '20-'21 he may have been thought of as a fluke or anomaly in the system. He could have had the off-year in '22 and then disappeared, but he came back in '23 and possibly even exceeded his freakish '20 and '21 but with a little different approach. He seemed to have adapted and in '23 established himself as the force in the game for the long run.

...and then they wrote him for dead in 1925.


Ruth in 1922 was solid, go double check his stats.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

...and then they wrote him for dead in 1925.

Literally.....

"It is reported in New York that "Babe" Ruth, the American champion baseball batter, has died in a train while on his way to New York, says a Central News telegram.
As a baseball king - he was the greatest player in the world - Ruth was infinitely more popular with Americans than any President could be......."

London Evening News, April 9, 1925


"I am through all right. Through with the pests and the good-time guys who’ve cost me a quarter of a million dollars. I’m going to make good all over again. I used to get sore when people called me a sap and tried to steer me right. They told me about John L. Sullivan and what happened to him, but I just laughed to myself. I was going to be the exception, the popular hero who could do as he pleased. But all those people were right. Now, though, I know that if I am going to wind up sitting pretty on the world I’ve got to face the facts and admit I have been the sappiest of saps." - (Babe Ruth, winter of ’25)

"I never saw Babe in better condition. Babe learned a lesson last year when he clashed with Huggins. He admitted his mistake manfully and is willing to make amends. It would be unfair to other players to say that the success of the Yankees depends entirely on Ruth’s comeback. But batting like he did in 1924 and playing every day, he will help the team wonderfully." - (Colonel Ruppert, spring of ’26)

As for 1922.

Lets look at how it started. How must Babe Ruth have felt. He was doing his best to spread the game of baseball and make money not only for himself, but for others as well, by barnstorming. Landis didn't like it and chose to display his power by suspending Ruth. Yet he then shows up at an auction and is the winning bidder on a Babe Ruth autographed baseball, 250 bucks. Landis would come to realize how lame his rule was, and allow a certain number of World Series participants to barnstorm.

So what kind of pressure was Ruth under to start the year? He was going to be out until late May. In the off-season he signed a new deal for 52,000 bucks which was unique in the amount and unique in that it was a multi-year deal. Every day that he missed to start the year cost him 285 bucks. He was also named captain. So coming back, there was a ton of pressure to perform. On his day back, the 20th, the crowd was packed as you'd expect. Police needed to control the scene as early as 10 am.

Ruth got off to a slow start and Yankee fans weren't happy. They razzed him pretty bad.

"The New York fans...haven't given me a square deal since I returned to the field." - Babe Ruth, May 26, 1922

On the 24th he tried to stretch a single into a double and was thrown out. Umpire Hildebrand called him out. Ruth disagreed, and apparently in the process, tossed some dirt toward him. I have heard that it was more of a "what do you mean" type gesture with his arms and dirt just happened to hit Hildebrand. In any case, Babe was tossed out of the game, either for the dirt or choice words, or both. As he was leaving the field, a couple men started shouting some insults and Ruth lost it. He jumped on the dugout and started to go after them but they took off. Ruth jumped back on the dugout, yelled some things, and then left toward the clubhouse. It should be noted that fans back then got away with a ton. They were brutal. It was not extremely rare for players to go into the stands. Heck, even Christy Mathewson once punched a lemonade boy in the mouth, splitting his lip and loosening some teeth, for making a nasty comment, either about him or a teammate. No matter. The incident was bad and he was fined 200 bucks and stripped of his captain title.

There was another incident on June 19th involving umpire Dineen throwing him out of a game for bad language. Ruth was suspended three days for this. Before the next game, he met with Dineen in the dugout and had some choice words for him. Dineen told Ban Johnson of the incident, and his three day suspension became six days.

The last 1922 suspension was a three day job. Came from bad language toward umpire Connolly. At this point, Ruth was clearly being watched more carefully and was listened to with rabbit ears.

He was also out for a couple weeks in August due to a leg infection from sliding. The same type of infection he had in his arm during the 1921 World Series. All in all, considering what went on, '22 was not Ruthian by any means, but it could have been, and perhaps should have been alot worse.