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Sisler is UNDERRATED

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  • Sisler is UNDERRATED

    George Sisler AVERAGED 222 hits a season. He hit for average, he hit for power, he stole bases, and he batted over .400 twice.

    He was the second greatest defensive first baseman in history.

    Give him his due.

    http://baseball.suite101.com/article...trade_williams
    Baseball articles you might not like but should read.

  • #2
    He had one of the great peaks of all time, but due to his eye problems his career value isn't among the greats. He also happened to be peaking at the same time as Ruth and Hornsby and being up against 2 arguably greater peaks isn't going to help your rep.
    If he had a normal career without the eye problem he would be considered a top 10 player by most, but his peak is too short for me to give him as much credit without the career value to back it up.

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    • #3
      He had seven great seasons from 1916 to 1922, but was just a guy after that. In truth his career was over before he was 30. I guess you can give him some props for continuing his career after his eye problems arose.

      His career to some extent mirrors Ralph Kiner's offensively. A decent rookie season followed by seven monster years. Neither did much after that.
      Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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      • #4
        You are right, but he did have pretty good years in 1925. 1927. and 1928.

        Mattingly, like Sisler, fell off the latter part of his career and Mattingly will not make the HOF.

        Koufax was the reverse.
        Baseball articles you might not like but should read.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by LouGehrig View Post
          You are right, but he did have pretty good years in 1925. 1927. and 1928.

          Mattingly, like Sisler, fell off the latter part of his career and Mattingly will not make the HOF.

          Koufax was the reverse.
          If you consider essentially league average offense from a first baseman a good season, that is. Granted he was a very good glove over there.

          But, if Todd Helton was going .285/.350/.420 would people consider him as having "good seasons?"
          THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

          In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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          • #6
            I agree with everything that's been stated so far.

            I personally have Sisler 9th out of All 1B. Well, 10th if you count Pujols.
            AL East Champions: 1981 1982
            AL Pennant: 1982
            NL Central Champions: 2011
            NL Wild Card: 2008

            "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

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            • #7
              Originally posted by LouGehrig View Post
              He was the second greatest defensive first baseman in history.

              http://baseball.suite101.com/article...trade_williams
              You're wrong with both guys there
              Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
              Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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              • #8
                Ferris Fain and Doug Mentkiewicz were not in his class. Maybe Don Hurst, but barely.
                Baseball articles you might not like but should read.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by LouGehrig View Post
                  Ferris Fain and Doug Mentkiewicz were not in his class. Maybe Don Hurst, but barely.
                  :noidea
                  Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                  Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LouGehrig View Post
                    George Sisler AVERAGED 222 hits a season.
                    I agree Sisler is underrated. He was great!

                    By extension, that just goes to show that Ichiro is underrated too. Through his first seven season, Ichiro has averaged 227 hits a season. And he broke Sisler's single-season hits record!

                    Yes yes I know different number of games big whup...

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by digglahhh View Post
                      If you consider essentially league average offense from a first baseman a good season, that is. Granted he was a very good glove over there.

                      But, if Todd Helton was going .285/.350/.420 would people consider him as having "good seasons?"
                      Even his 7 year peak (155 OPS+) was not more valuable on paper than the 7 year peak of Thurman Munson (119 for a catcher who played almost every game and won legit gold gloves) or even possibly Gil McDougald (119 OPS+ and gold glove level at 3 positions).


                      If Sisler had played in a lower scoring era and gone .300/.340/.420 with the same RELATIVE rates he would be off the radar.

                      Still, his overall offensive setting was basically average. He only slugged over .500 4 times and over .450 just 6 times total.

                      If first base was tougher in that time, maybe more like 3rd today, he might crack the top 125.
                      Last edited by brett; 05-15-2008, 09:54 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by LouGehrig View Post
                        George Sisler AVERAGED 222 hits a season. He hit for average, he hit for power, he stole bases, and he batted over .400 twice.
                        Let's look at some important things.

                        His top hits in a season

                        -H--------OUTS MADE
                        257--------404
                        246--------375
                        224--------449
                        216--------391
                        205--------444


                        .340 career average with a .379 OBP.

                        He slugged .468 for his career, despite playing 2/3 of his career in the live-ball era and playing 12 of 15 seasons in a park with a joke for a right-side.

                        I'll give him his due on defense, especially considering when he played and how much more important first was back then.

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                        • #13
                          No he's not.

                          That is all.






















                          Just kidding. He's not underrated...but I'll give you more reasons for that. His park reads as tremendously hitter friendly. He wasn't that great a defensive first baseman statistically (good in his first several years, HORRIBLE afterwards), he didn't get on base enough for someone with his contact skill, and he didn't last long enough at a high level.

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                          • #14
                            Hits

                            Hits in and of themselves do not matter that much.

                            As Allan Barra exclaims when talking about how people love hwo many times Pete Rose got 200 hits (he was comparing Rose to Raines): How important can any batting stat be where Ted Williams has zero? (Ted's career high in hits is 194).

                            As for the article, lifetime batting average at a position isn't that big of a deal either. According to the article, Terry and Sisler are #'s 1 and 2 on the career average list for 1st basemen. Here are the lifetime batting averages of the other Hall of Fame 1st basemen:

                            Cap Anson: .333
                            Jake Beckley: .308
                            Jim Bottomley: .310
                            Dan Brouthers: .342
                            Orlando Cepeda: .297
                            Frank Chance: .296
                            Roger Connor: .317
                            Jimmie Foxx: .325
                            Lou Gehrig: .340
                            Hank Greenberg: .313.
                            George Kelly: .297
                            Harmon Killebrew: .256
                            Buck Leonard: Unknown
                            Willie McCovey: .270
                            Johnny Mize: .312
                            Eddie Murray: .287
                            Tony Perez: .279
                            Mule Suttles: Unknown
                            Ben Taylor: Unknown

                            Lower Batting Average or not, I'd take Gehrig, Foxx, Mize, McCovey, or Greenberg over Sisler or Terry.
                            Last edited by 1905 Giants; 05-15-2008, 10:43 PM.
                            “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

                            "Fill in any figure you want for that boy (Mantle). Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 1905 Giants View Post
                              Hits in and of themselves do not matter that much.

                              As Allan Barra exclaims when talking about how people love hwo many times Pete Rose got 200 hits (he was comparing Rose to Raines): How important can any batting stat be where Ted Williams has zero? (Ted's career high in hits is 194).

                              As for the article, lifetime batting average at a position isn't that big of a deal either. According to the article, Terry and Sisler are #'s 1 and 2 on the career average list for 1st basemen. Here are the lifetime batting averages of the other Hall of Fame 1st basemen:

                              Cap Anson: .333
                              Jake Beckley: .308
                              Jim Bottomley: .310
                              Dan Brouthers: .342
                              Orlando Cepeda: .297
                              Frank Chance: .296
                              Roger Connor: .317
                              Jimmie Foxx: .325
                              Lou Gehrig: .340
                              Hank Greenberg: .313.
                              George Kelly: .297
                              Harmon Killebrew: .256
                              Buck Leonard: Unknown
                              Willie McCovey: .270
                              Johnny Mize: .312
                              Eddie Murray: .287
                              Tony Perez: .279
                              Mule Suttles: Unknown
                              Ben Taylor: Unknown

                              Lower Batting Average or not, I'd take Gehrig, Foxx, Mize, McCovey, or Greenberg over Sisler or Terry.
                              The lowest difference between BA and OBP of all the players on that list, is 45points by George Kelly. Sisler's 39 point difference is absurd for a lefty in that park.

                              I laugh when I hear announcers mention Ichiro's or Michael Young's number of 200 hit seasons. Like they don't expect the viewer to say...."Hmmm...well...I wonder how many AB it took to get those hits?" Rather meaninglesss total imo. Just like with 3000 hits. Everyone in that "club" has at least 9000 AB. Only 7 have under 10,000 and 20 have more than 10,000 (with 9 of those having 11,000+).

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