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Addie Joss vs Sandy Koufax

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  • Addie Joss vs Sandy Koufax

    They are very similiar..both retired after age 30, with almost identical amount of innings pitched.

    Joss: 160-97

    142 ERA+

    Koufax: 165-87

    131 ERA+

    Koufax took longer to get good, and probably had a better peak, but Joss in 1908 was better than Koufax ever was. Im not going to start a poll. because it would be a landslide. But why is one guy unknown and the other considered one of the best pitchers ever?

  • #2
    I'm assuming you're talking about the general baseball population, as I think everyone in the history forum knows about Joss.

    I think it's the same reason that some baseball fans don't know about people like Edd Roush or Sherry Magee. Great baseball players that played 100 years ago. How many people do you know that were alive 100 years ago, and for that matter, how many people alive 100 years ago were baseball fans? The 1960's was the golden age of baseball when everyone was still a baseball fan, so everyone know who Koufax was, etc. My dad was 17 when Koufax retired, so learning about Koufax was just as easy as talking to my dad. Whereas my Grandpa wasn't even born when Joss retired.
    AL East Champions: 1981 1982
    AL Pennant: 1982
    NL Central Champions: 2011
    NL Wild Card: 2008

    "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

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    • #3
      Originally posted by The Dude View Post
      Whereas my Grandpa wasn't even born when Joss retired.
      Did players make retirement announcements back then or just kind of stop playing? Did Joss ever formerly retire, or did he die before he got to make any such decision?
      Originally posted by Domenic
      The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

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      • #4
        I wasnt aware that Joss was considered an all time great pitcher on here. Ive been following baseball all my life and barely heard of him until I looked him up today. Other guys who played back then, such as Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Mordecai Brown, Matthewson, and even lesser known guys like Plank, McGinnity, Chesbro , Walsh, and Waddell are all pretty famous now; so i dont know if it's just the fact that he played long ago. Do people on this forum rate Joss higher? Maybe its more that Koufax is overrated than that Joss in underrated. Perhaps he should be overshadowed by his longer lasting contemporaries, much the same way that Joss was. Looking at it objectively, Koufax really is a borderline hall of famer.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by willshad View Post
          Koufax took longer to get good, and probably had a better peak, but Joss in 1908 was better than Koufax ever was.
          The thing I like about Joss is that his entire career was pitched at a peak level IMO, unlike Koufax, who took about 6 seasons to "get it"

          Joss' career started great and ended great... He never had a bad season... Its a shame that his career was cut short because of meningitis..

          2nd best era all-time and best whip all-time... May have gone down as one of the best ever if not for that illness
          "There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit.
          ~~Al Gallagher


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          • #6
            I dont know that Joss played at 'peak level' every year. Outside of 1908, his ERAs werent really THAT good for his Era. Everyone had under a 2.00 ERA back then it seemed.

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            • #7
              "I'm assuming you're talking about the general baseball population, as I think everyone in the history forum knows about Joss..."

              Very well put and essentially true (at least in out History forum).
              Addie is a bit of a victim of time as he died in 1911...however, a couple of things to consider are 1) He was eventually elected to the HOF in 1978 and 2) His death WAS a big deal back in the day as evidenced by the Addie Joss Death Benefit Game played on July 24, 1911. It's been largely considered to be the first All-Star Game in MLB history.

              In any case, among those of us who really follow the history of the game, it's safe to say that he hasn't been forgotten.
              Say hello on Twitter @BSmile & Facebook "Baseball by BSmile"

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              • #8
                Originally posted by willshad View Post
                I dont know that Joss played at 'peak level' every year. Outside of 1908, his ERAs werent really THAT good for his Era. Everyone had under a 2.00 ERA back then it seemed.
                Well his era was almost a full run under the league average for his Era..

                His career era is 1.89 compared to the league era of 2.68 during his playing days... Just about every year, except maybe his last year, which he didnt play the full season he has great stats...
                "There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit.
                ~~Al Gallagher


                God Bless America!

                Click here to see my baseball tribute site!

                Click here to see the best pitcher NOT in the HOF!

                sigpic

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by BSmile View Post
                  His death WAS a big deal back in the day as evidenced by the Addie Joss Death Benefit Game played on July 24, 1911. It's been largely considered to be the first All-Star Game in MLB history.
                  .
                  Yeah, he apparently was so beloved that several baseball stars played in a charity game that benefited his widow... Sounds like a great man with a golden arm:applaud:
                  "There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit.
                  ~~Al Gallagher


                  God Bless America!

                  Click here to see my baseball tribute site!

                  Click here to see the best pitcher NOT in the HOF!

                  sigpic

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                  • #10
                    Well I know one criticism of Joss is that he wasn't used to near the same extent as his contemporaries, save for 1907 and 1908 when he finished 5th and 2nd in the AL in IP.

                    Here's how he compared to the rest of his staff:
                    1902 - 2nd on team in IP
                    1903 - 1st on team in IP
                    1904 - 4th on team in IP
                    1905 - 1st on team in IP
                    1906 - 3rd on team in IP
                    1907 - 1st on team in IP
                    1908 - 1st on team in IP
                    1909 - 3rd on team in IP
                    1910 - 6th on team in IP

                    So he had only 4 years where he lead his staff in IP, in spite of posting consistently better numbers than anyone else on his team. Did Lajoie know something we didn't? Why would Lajoie give more innings to guys like Bob Rhoads, Earl Moore and Otto Hess. Did Joss have injury problems?

                    Also it looked like Joss was close to being washed up in 1910, so I have my doubts about him being able to continue at a high level.

                    He was good pitcher, but his usage pattern suggests he wasn't in the same class as his contemporaries. He was great in 1908, but that's his only really dominating year.
                    "It's good to be young and a Giant." - Larry Doyle

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by willshad View Post
                      I wasnt aware that Joss was considered an all time great pitcher on here. Ive been following baseball all my life and barely heard of him until I looked him up today. Other guys who played back then, such as Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Mordecai Brown, Matthewson, and even lesser known guys like Plank, McGinnity, Chesbro , Walsh, and Waddell are all pretty famous now; so i dont know if it's just the fact that he played long ago. Do people on this forum rate Joss higher? Maybe its more that Koufax is overrated than that Joss in underrated. Perhaps he should be overshadowed by his longer lasting contemporaries, much the same way that Joss was. Looking at it objectively, Koufax really is a borderline hall of famer.
                      I think Joss ranked in the 45-50 range in our all time pitchers list last year. Koufax was somewhere in the 30s. Joss seems to have have VERY good defenses behind him. Same for M. Brown by the way.

                      Joss' 5 year peak DERA (defense independent) was NOT great (3.83 with 4.5 set as average). Koufax' was an escellent 2.97. Joss may be the most helped by his defense among the top 100 all-time pitchers.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by brett View Post
                        I think Joss ranked in the 45-50 range in our all time pitchers list last year. Koufax was somewhere in the 30s. Joss seems to have have VERY good defenses behind him. Same for M. Brown by the way.

                        Joss' 5 year peak DERA (defense independent) was NOT great (3.83 with 4.5 set as average). Koufax' was an escellent 2.97. Joss may be the most helped by his defense among the top 100 all-time pitchers.
                        Agreed. It was not unusual for Joss (and even more so for Brown) to have 20-30 runs saved by their defenses each year. In today's game with far fewer balls hit in play, it is uncommon for even the most defensive reliant pitcher to receive more than 10-12 runs of defensive support a year-even on an outstanding defensive team. Since team defense played a much larger role in run prevention, It is important that we look closely at how much these older guys were helped by their defenses. Not that Joss wasn't very good, but his 142 ERA+ is misleading, as you mentioned flawlessly.
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                        • #13
                          Joss also got into the HoF on a technicality. He did not participate in ten different seasons. The HoF decided to waive that requirement in his case since death is a real deterrent to career longevity.
                          Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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                          • #14
                            Very few knew about Joss as the decades wore on. When the first MacMillan encyclopedia came out in 1969, many were shocked to here of this guy Joss whose numbers were so staggering. That's when the push for his induction was initiated.

                            http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=70355

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