Should Barry be allowed to pass Ruth and Aaron?

[Bronxbommers]

I have always been a fan of Barry Bonds, even in the midst of his steriod allegations. I guess I got caught up in the moment like so many of us did when he would powerfully send a shot into the night. However, my attitude has recently changed when I realized how badly he cheated (if you believe what's coming out in this new book) and I question whether or not I want him to be allowed to pass these two legends. If you want to know the feeling I'm having, watch the movie 61* about Roger Maris' struggle, and see of that makes you get a sick feeling in your stomache, watching all that Maris went through without having any kind of performance enhancing drugs. It puts the whole thing in perspective, and, quite frankly, I don't think I want Barry in baseball anymore. He should either just go away, or Bud Selig, having confirmed the allegations, should ban him from the sport. If you can ban guys like Joe Jackson for betting on the game, you can ban guys like Bonds for cheating and ruining the integrity of a record. Any thoughts?

[johnny]

records, records, i got plenty of records

I have always been a fan of Barry Bonds, even in the midst of his steriod allegations. I guess I got caught up in the moment like so many of us did when he would powerfully send a shot into the night. However, my attitude has recently changed when I realized how badly he cheated (if you believe what's coming out in this new book) and I question whether or not I want him to be allowed to pass these two legends. If you want to know the feeling I'm having, watch the movie 61* about Roger Maris' struggle, and see of that makes you get a sick feeling in your stomache, watching all that Maris went through without having any kind of performance enhancing drugs. It puts the whole thing in perspective, and, quite frankly, I don't think I want Barry in baseball anymore. He should either just go away, or Bud Selig, having confirmed the allegations, should ban him from the sport. If you can ban guys like Joe Jackson for betting on the game, you can ban guys like Bonds for cheating and ruining the integrity of a record. Any thoughts?

truth be told, i am getting the vibe from baseball fans that we have a real danger of devolving into the chaos of championship boxing. with the multitude of boxing titles IBF/WBF/CBF/IEIEBF/EIEIOBF titles out there people stop caring about the history.
so lets say bonds continues to play and knocks out 800 homers.
you'll have people say that the home run records for single season and all time are held by barry.
some may say big mac and aaron hold the records.
others will go old school and say marris and aaron.

[DTF955]

truth be told, i am getting the vibe from baseball fans that we have a real danger of devolving into the chaos of championship boxing. with the multitude of boxing titles IBF/WBF/CBF/IEIEBF/EIEIOBF titles out there people stop caring about the history.
so lets say bonds continues to play and knocks out 800 homers.
you'll have people say that the home run records for single season and all time are held by barry.
some may say big mac and aaron hold the records.
others will go old school and say marris and aaron.

Good point, the legions of fans declaring who holds the rightful record will be very confusing.

Barry clearly did it while it was illegal - even though they weren't testing, that still means he is guilty of violating baseball's rules. However, I would be a little leery of saying a lifetime ban, and not reconsidering. i know, Steve Howe had a ridiculous number of supposed lifetime bans, but for every Steve Howe, there is a Dwight Gooden, a fellow who made it back and does okay in the latter half of the 90s, though he was a shadow of what he once was. Or a Dave Parker, for that matter.

Remember, if Barry were just an everyday player (or even if he were Dave Parker) there would not be quite as much fuss. Although, if someone wants to use the line used on Dizzy Dean once ("You're a star, you get the biggest everything, and that includes the biggest fines" - or something like that) I would understand.

here is what I would do:

Suspend him for a year (he clearly did enough to warrant that) without pay; that leaves him ready to come back at the time that he becomes a free agent.

Insist he give an amount, not sure what, to charity to help fight fight drug/steroid use in youth. (1/10 of a previous year or 2 salary sounds good - like the 1/10 salary fined after the 1985 drug scandal.)

Allow him to come back, with Draconian measures to ensure he's clean at first - in 2007, *if* he wants to.

He'll have not played baseball for 2 years, except for a handful of games last September. He'll be a year older, and yet he'll have a chance to prove, *if* anyone wants him (I doubt they would, only because I suspect that he wouldn't take $500,000 a year or anything), that he would have been that good without the steroids.

If you would give a lifetime ban to another player who wasn't near the records, though, then it makes sense you'd do it with Bonds, too. I just think that's a little extreme.

[Bronxbommers]

Too extreme

I agree, it may be too extreme to put Bonds on a lifetime ban. I just, probably much like Bud Selig right now, don't know what to do. I can't help but see Maris and his physically and emotionally exhausting run to 61 home runs, and now you have guys like McGwire and Bonds shoot up on all kinds of illegal supplements, and they just waltz past him. It just doesn't seem right, when you think of how the other guys (Ruth, Aaron) didn't cheat.

[johnny]

I agree, it may be too extreme to put Bonds on a lifetime ban. I just, probably much like Bud Selig right now, don't know what to do. I can't help but see Maris and his physically and emotionally exhausting run to 61 home runs, and now you have guys like McGwire and Bonds shoot up on all kinds of illegal supplements, and they just waltz past him. It just doesn't seem right, when you think of how the other guys (Ruth, Aaron) didn't cheat.

Nice article from ESPN. David Wells comes out strong against Bonds.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2360259

[leecemark]

--The penalties for steroid use are already set in the CBA between MLB and the Players Union. Regardless of what types or how long or how often Bonds used steroids he can only be punished as a first offender (probably not even that without a positive test). The only punishment available to MLB is a brief suspension (10 days I think?).

[Tigerfan1974]

Absolutely NOT!!!:grouchy


Say Good bye Barry!!

[digglahhh]

Suspend Bonds for what? How can MLB suspend Bonds? He has not failed any tests and if they did suspend him, he could fight the suspension and he would win. Sure Barry did a lot of wrong, but MLB's hands are tied on this one, IMO.

[jpenrod]

Suspend Bonds for what? How can MLB suspend Bonds? He has not failed any tests and if they did suspend him, he could fight the suspension and he would win. Sure Barry did a lot of wrong, but MLB's hands are tied on this one, IMO.

I agree, and it is not often I agree with a mets fan!

[Sultan_1895-1948]

--The penalties for steroid use are already set in the CBA between MLB and the Players Union. Regardless of what types or how long or how often Bonds used steroids he can only be punished as a first offender (probably not even that without a positive test). The only punishment available to MLB is a brief suspension (10 days I think?).

Exactly right mark. The first offense penalties are in place and we gotta go by those. The weak first offense penalty speaks volumes about the players union's role in making a mockery of the testing policy.

As you said, he never had a positive test. But, his tests did show up with unusually high testosterone levels, which is what they look for. Only reason it didn't come out positive, is because he was allegedly taking the cream which was designed to be a masking agent, containing epitestosterone.

So if it's proven that he was taking a masking agent, coupled with his extremely unusual high testostrone levels, is that not enough? Or is a negative test a negative test? Probably the latter huh.

Another question. HGH will not show up because it can only be tested through blood, which the CBA excludes. Is HGH on the list of banned substances by MLB though? What about THG (clear)?

[TonyK]

I suspect 100 to 125 years from now baseball fans will look up Bonds' numbers, watch footage of his home run swings and ignore the one sentence disclaimer written in the history books about his feats. Think about how little we know about players like Cap Anson, Ed Delahanty or Nap Lajoie.

[rockin500]

I suspect 100 to 125 years from now baseball fans will look up Bonds' numbers, watch footage of his home run swings and ignore the one sentence disclaimer written in the history books about his feats. Think about how little we know about players like Cap Anson, Ed Delahanty or Nap Lajoie.

difference being that there isnt any video evidence and all this information available that there was of guys like Anson, Lajoie, and Delahanty.

[johnny]

I suspect 100 to 125 years from now baseball fans will look up Bonds' numbers, watch footage of his home run swings and ignore the one sentence disclaimer written in the history books about his feats. Think about how little we know about players like Cap Anson, Ed Delahanty or Nap Lajoie.

Actually, given the benefit of hindsight and the pic/video attesting to the amazing body changes baseball historians will be calling this time the 'Cleopatra Era' as those in power turned a blind eye to what was going on.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

The "cash grab" era seems more fitting than "steroid era", but either might be appropriate.

[FrenchyLefebvre]

Actually, given the benefit of hindsight and the pic/video attesting to the amazing body changes baseball historians will be calling this time the 'Cleopatra Era' as those in power turned a blind eye to what was going on.

Imagine if Vincent/Selig had been Commissioner back in 1919. We'd probably have Bookie-Booths right next to the beer stands in all the ballparks today. And odds posted on the scoreboards.