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A-rod or Pop Lloyd?

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  • A-rod or Pop Lloyd?

    who is the better player?
    24
    John Henry "Pop" Lloyd
    12.50%
    3
    Alex Rodriguez
    87.50%
    21

  • #2
    I have no idea.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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    • #3
      for what its worth Babe Ruth said Pop Lloyd he was the best player he ever saw (same with reporter Ted harlow)

      Honus Wagner said "It's an honor to be compared to him."

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
        I have no idea.
        Ditto to this
        sigpic

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        • #5
          I debated who to vote for, but decided to vote for A-Rod, mainly because I've seen him play, and because the stats we do have for Negro leaguers are incomplete and sketchy. But Pop Lloyd certainly has a great reputation as an outstanding defensive shortstop and often compared to Honus Wagner, in fact, one nickname given to Lloyd was the Black Wagner.

          Depending on who you believe Lloyd either hit approximately .368 according to James Riley or approximately .344 according the John Holway.

          For anyone who would like to know more about Lloyd, I've listed some info and websites below;

          Here's some quotes on Lloyd as mentioned by Blackout:

          When Babe Ruth was interviewed by pioneering announcer Graham McNamee, he was asked who was the greatest player of all time. Ruth asked, "You mean major leaguers?" "No," replied McNamee, "the greatest player anywhere." "In that case," responded Ruth, "I'd pick John Henry Lloyd."

          Wagner was quoted in The Sporting News' as saying, "After I saw him, I felt honored that they should name such a great ballplayer after me."

          “I am honored to have John Lloyd called the Black Wagner. It is a priviledge to have been compared to him.” — Honus Wagner

          In 1938, many years after Lloyd's career was over, Ted Harlow, a St. Louis sportswriter paid Lloyd the ultimate compliment, when asked "Who was the best baseball player in the history of the sport?" He replied, "If you mean in organized baseball, my answer would be Babe Ruth; but if you mean in all baseball, organized and unorganized, I would have to say it is a colored man named John Henry Lloyd."

          "If we could bleach this Lloyd boy, we would show the National League a new phenomenon." – John McGraw

          “Put Lloyd and Wagner in the same bag and whichever one you pulled out, you wouldn't go wrong." – Connie Mack

          Elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1977: http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/ho...layerId=492576

          Elected to Basball think factories Hall of Merit: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...hn_henry_lloyd

          Ranks 5th best Negro league player by Society for American Baseball Research:
          http://www.baseball-almanac.com/lege...lisabr40.shtml

          Ranks 27th greatest baseball player, and 2nd greatest shortstop all time by Bill James:
          http://baseballevolution.com/top100s/billjames100.html

          Negro league historian John Holway lists Pop Lloyd with a .344 BA:
          http://baseballguru.com/jholway/analysisjholway58.html

          From MLB.com;
          “During the first two decades of the 20th century, many believe that John Henry "Pop" Lloyd was the best player in the Negro Leagues, if not the Majors, and for good reason: No one could match him with the glove at shortstop. In fact, Lloyd earned the nickname, "The Shovel," because he could field tough groundballs out of the dirt. And there was no better hitter than Lloyd, for he has the highest career batting average (.368) in Negro League history. “
          http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/mlb...yer=lloyd_john

          From James A. Riley, The Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues.

          “He was a complete ballplayer who could hit, run, field, throw, and hit with power, especially in the clutch. A superior hitter and a dangerous base runner, his knowledge and application of inside baseball as defined in the era allowed him to generate runs with a variety of skills. In the field he was a superlative fielder who studied batters and positioned himself wisely, got a good jump on the ball, and possessed exceptional range and sure hands with which he dug balls out of the dirt like a shovel.”

          “The left-handed place hitter who batted out of a slightly closed stance had an easy, powerful swing that produced a lifetime .368 average over a phenomenal twenty seven year career in black baseball. Twelve winter seasons in Cuba, interspersed between the years 1908 and 1930, show a .321 lifetime average. During his prime, island records of the 1912 and 1913 seasons show a composite .361 batting average, and in one reknowned series in 1910, against Ty Cobb's Detroit Tigers, he hit .500 to lead all hitters.”
          http://www.coe.ksu.edu/nlbemuseum/hi...s/lloydjh.html

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
            I have no idea.
            I doubt anyone alive feels confident in their opinion on this one.

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            • #7
              I think A-Rod is probably a top 25 position player. I also think if I were to attempt to rank Lloyd, my best guess is that he would fall somewhere in the top 25 as well. But I am much more confident on A-Rod, and so my inclination is to vote for him. However, despite my inclinations, I am declining to participate in this poll, because I agree with the people who believe it is impossible to tell.
              "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

              - Alvin Dark

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Dogdaze View Post
                "If we could bleach this Lloyd boy, we would show the National League a new phenomenon." – John McGraw
                Boy, this quote really puts things into perspective. :disbelief:

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by csh19792001 View Post
                  I doubt anyone alive feels confident in their opinion on this one.
                  Got to be so. I have a problem comparing any early black player to most MLB players. I don't see how it could ever be done with any real conviction. It's being asked to compare two players or in some cases a black player to any MLB player in any time period who though no fault of his own never played MLB and to make matters worse you have very little in the way of stats.
                  Never could see anyone ranking Josh Gibson as the greatest catcher. I'm certain he would have more then held his own in MLB and he might have ended up number one, might have, a shame he never had his chance, the losers MLB and the fans.
                  But we have to deal with the facts, lead with the brain and not the heart. I always note that some of the great blacks belong on the list, I have no idea where, I could never give any of them a specific number, where on the list.
                  Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 05-30-2008, 07:11 AM.

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                  • #10
                    What gets me, is that people go out of their way, using their imagination along with shoddy stats and over-the-top flowery praise of Negro Leaguers to rank them. But those same people rarely, if ever, consider ranking early MLB guys. For me, both groups are in the same boat and it's too difficult to attempt a ranking. Better off imo, acknowledging the handful of guys from each, who deserve to be mentioned as very likely all-time greats all things being equal. Gibson along with Lloyd, would be a couple of those for me and that's where it has to be left.

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                    • #11
                      I agree with Mssrs. Mack, McGraw, Ruth & Wagner - Pop Lloyd was one of the very greatest ballplayers that ever lived.

                      A-Rod ain't close.

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                      • #12
                        I went with Arod since I know how good he is.
                        Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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                        • #13
                          Not only was Pop Lloyd a phenomenal all-round ballplayer, he also brought his teams great success - the most important thing any ballplayer can do.

                          All Time Great Ballplayer, Leader, Manager & Human Being.

                          http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/history/mlb_n...yer=lloyd_john

                          http://www.negroleaguebaseball.com/players/Lloyd.html

                          http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballp...Pop_Lloyd_1884

                          I vote Lloyd.
                          Last edited by Proctor, CF; 06-02-2008, 12:16 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by csh19792001 View Post
                            I doubt anyone alive feels confident in their opinion on this one.
                            I'll agree with you here - most unfortunate though.

                            I can't help but feeling that Lloyd through no fault of his own just didn't face the best pitchers in the country day in and day out. Hard for me to give anyone the nod with that in mind, despite how much I enjoy Negro league history.

                            Especially considering the influx of foreign talent, Arod gets the nod as doing the best against the best.
                            Last edited by Brian McKenna; 06-02-2008, 12:59 PM.

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                            • #15
                              i guess ill say arod

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