Why does Clemens rank higher than Randy Johnson?

[Gregory Pratt]

Aside from a bunch of hype, I don't really see it looking their careers over. Please explain, discuss.

[dgarza]

Aside from a bunch of hype,

Please explain this "hype".

[brett]

Try over 1000 more innings?

[bob]

Try over 1000 more innings?

Their averages are very close (236IP v 233IP in favour of clemens). In fact, most of their career averages are very close. Clemens has alot more wins though, and has won 20 games six times, Johnson only once.

[Edgartohof]

Clemens - 7 Cy Young's, 1 MVP
Big Unit - 4 Cy Young's

Clemens - 2 Triple Crowns
Big Unit - 1 Triple Crown

Clemens - 354 Wins
Big Unit - 288


I am a HUGE Johnson fan, but the numbers do say Clemens. He was able to get an earlier start (MVP at age 23), whereas Johnson didn't get control of his stuff until age 29 (it was after a long discussion w/ Nolan Ryan if I remember correctly - read it in a book).

[rockin500]

Aside from a bunch of hype, I don't really see it looking their careers over. Please explain, discuss.

not sure how anyone can realistically compare Clemens and Johnson based on their numbers. There just is NO comparison. Even if you factor in steroids, johnson is inferior to clemens.

[Edgartohof]

not sure how anyone can realistically compare Clemens and Johnson based on their numbers. There just is NO comparison. Even if you factor in steroids, johnson is inferior to clemens.

I'm not sure I would go THAT far. That's like saying, though Babe Ruth is #1, not even Cobb or Mays can be compared.

Johnson put up PHENOMENAL numbers, and that is DESPITE the fact that he didn't get it all together until the age of 29!

He still put up some of the greatest seasons we've seen. He did win 5 Cy Young awards - and he should have won the 2004 NL Cy Young award, when Roger won it. He had more IP, SO, and a lower ERA and WHIP! Roger just had the better team. In 2004, Randy's team had an OPS+ of 82. Roger's team had an OPS+ of 104. That's a 22 point difference - Imagine what Randy would have done with a team hitting like that!?!?

I mean Roger was good in '04, with an ERA under 3, a WHIP just under 1.200.

But Randy had a 177 ERA+, which lead the league, and lead in WHIP, with an ASTOUNDING 0.900!!! Of active players, only Maddux ('94, '95) and Pedro ('00) have bested that!

So that would change things up from 7 Cy's for Roger and 5 for Randy, to 6 each. That would seem to even the playing ground a little as well.

And as good of a SO pitcher Roger was, 2nd all-time (though not for long), with 4672 SO. But he never topped 300 SO's even ONCE in his career. Randy Johnson topped that mark 6 times in his career, and bested Roger's best of 292 a total of 7 times!

Randy is the greatest SO pitcher EVER! He owns the SO/9IP record with 10.76. And even this season, at the age of 44, he has a SO/9IP of around 9.7! That's better than all but Roger's best season (1998 at the age of 35 - not 44 like Johnson).

In fact Randy Johnson owns 7 of the top 10 Single Season marks in this category, including the #1 spot from 2001 with a rate of 13.41 SO/9IP!!! Do you know that means??? Nearly the majority of his outs were coming from SO that season!!! How's THAT for all those DIPS fans??? He had no need for defense...he was striking them all out on his own!!!

And I hate to bring this up, but it's a fact. Roger Clemens has never killed a bird during a major league game...but guess who has? You got it, Randy Johnson! That alone right there, just about puts him in the Hall alone! Or how about his All-Star game performance against Kruk? Now THAT intimidation!!!

Either way, both of them were and are phenomenal players and anyone would be happy to have either on their team.

[geezer]

Johnson won 20 games 3 times (1997, 2001-2002), and a fact that Randy Johnson advantages Clemens, 2 no-hitters against none for the Rocket.

[bob]

Agreeing with Edgartohof, Johnson is clearly the better SO pitcher, and you have to say that if Randy hit his peak at the same age as Clemens then the career totals may be much closer than they are now.

[Victory Faust]

Clemens: Almost certainly did steroids.

Johnson: No evidence that he did steroids.

That, to me, makes all the difference. Without the 'roids, Roger likely continues the slide we saw in his last Boston years, and nobody is talking about him as a top-10 pitcher.

[NewYork NewYork]

Well the main reason...

Pitcher		IP     ERA+	WHIP           
Clemens		4916.2	143	1.17
Johnson		3907.0	138	1.17

Johnson was a beast and at his best he might've been the better pitcher. But Clemens has had the slightly better career numbers despite pitching a little over 1000 more IP than Johnson. In today's game that's about 4-5 more seasons worth of IP, a pretty significant amount.

[BlueBlood]

Clemens: Almost certainly did steroids.

Johnson: No evidence that he did steroids.

That, to me, makes all the difference. Without the 'roids, Roger likely continues the slide we saw in his last Boston years, and nobody is talking about him as a top-10 pitcher.

Slide or no, I think Clemens would still have been considered Top Ten for his peak value alone. But yes, the steroids issue makes all the difference.

[NewYork NewYork]

I might consider Clemens the slightly better pitcher, but Johnson is easily the better SO pitcher. I think strikeouts per batters faced is a much better measure than SO/9IP. These are their career averages, and their best 5 years.

Pitcher    K/BF 
Johnson	   29.0% 
Clemens	   23.1%

Johnson	        K/BF
2001		37.4%
1997		34.2%
1995		33.9%
1999		33.7%
1998		32.4%

Clemens		K/BF
1998		28.2%
1997		28.0%
1988		27.4%
2002		25.0%
1996		24.9%

I think it's pretty clear that Clemens wasn't ever in Johnson's league as a strikeout pitcher. Clemens' career high in K/BF% is lower than Johnson's career average! That's simply incredible.

I do think Pedro Martinez might have an argument over Johnson when it comes to best SO pitcher ever. Here are his Top 5 seasons and career K/BF seasons...

Pitcher		K/BF
Pedro		28.3%

Pedro		K/BF
1999		37.5%
2000		34.8%
1997		32.3%
2002		30.4%
2003		27.5%

I'd probably give the edge to Johnson over Pedro as a SO pitcher, but is seems like Pedro's peak of 99/00 is a little bit higher than Johnson's peak SO wise. Pedro in 99-00 is most likely the best pitcher to have ever walked on the planet, so this isn't really much of a surprise

[dl4060]

And I hate to bring this up, but it's a fact. Roger Clemens has never killed a bird during a major league game...but guess who has? You got it, Randy Johnson! That alone right there, just about puts him in the Hall alone!

Why exactly should this put him in the hall?

[Los Bravos]

That, to me, makes all the difference. Without the 'roids, Roger likely continues the slide we saw in his last Boston years, and nobody is talking about him as a top-10 pitcher.

That's about it for me, too. And, just to remind everyone, I despise Johnson, but he did it the right way (much like Schilling, another guy I don't especially care for.)