Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Roger Clemens vs. Nolan Ryan?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Blackout
    replied
    Originally posted by FlashGordon
    To reframe this discussion away from the simplicity of a "who's better" vote, the original discussion was whether or not Clemens vs. Nolan Ryan was, as DoubleX put it, "a matter of night and day."

    At no point did I ever try to argue that Ryan was a better pitcher than Clemens, only that trying to claim that Ryan was nowhere near Clemens' class was an unjust underestimation of his achievements and contributions. I mean we're not comparing Mike Stanley and Clemens here. In fact, the roster of Cy Young winners is filled with names of one-hit wonders who were nowhere near Ryan's class, let alone Clemens. As we approach the summit of baseball's best, the air gets rarified and the numbers are huge. Ryan holds all kinds of distinctions that Clemens never will, which does not have to take away from Roger's legacy anymore than Roger should detract from Ryan's.

    I understand that XX considers Ryan "the most overrated pitcher of all time," and therefore might take it as a personal crusade to see to it that others feel the same way; but in the end, most of the discussion will always be purely academic. I truly became a baseball fan when Clemens was the Red Sox ace and never forgave Duquette for giving up on him. That said, I still bear a grudge that it took that kind of a dope slap to get the Rocket to start producing to his full potential again. I just don't think it's fair to Nolan Ryan to suggest that he isn't fit to polish Clemens' cleats.
    Clemens is the only pitcher to win 7 Cy Youngs, I don't think ANYBODY will ever do that again. Thats his #1 record, just as amazing as Nolans 5000k


    Ryan never won one.

    Leave a comment:


  • SABR Matt
    replied
    Alright...who here voted for Ryan so I can beat them over the head.

    Dudes...this ain't even close.

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    I think these are the players I'd rank ahead of Ryan (not quite in order):

    Walter Johnson
    Roger Clemens
    Lefty Grove
    Greg Maddux
    Pete Alexander
    Cy Young
    Tom Seaver
    Randy Johnson
    Christy Mathewson
    Warren Spahn
    Pedro Martinez
    Carl Hubbell
    Bob Feller
    Steve Carlton
    Bob Gison
    Sandy Koufax
    Whitey Ford
    Jim Palmer
    Mordecai Brown
    Juan Marichal

    I'm iffy on Marichal, so Ryan is looking like 20th or 21st in my rankings. I can also see arguments in favor of Kid Nichols, Gaylord Perry, Robin Roberts, Fergie Jenkins, Eddie Plank, Stan Coveleski, and even Tom Glavine and Bert Blyleven. So I suppose with some convincing arguments, I could see dropping Ryan to closer to 30th.
    Last edited by DoubleX; 03-14-2006, 11:36 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • barzilla
    replied
    Yes, I agree. If the poll question were "who would I rather pay money to pitch?" it would be Ryan hands down. However, I think putting in the top 20 is excessively generous. We're talking about a pitcher who was not only unworthy of Cy Young consideration in most seasons, but was also the second or third best pitcher on his team in his seasons.

    Ryan's record is an impressive streak of longevity, but if you're talking about "greatest" in any meaningful way then he shouldn't be included in the discussion.

    Leave a comment:


  • RuthMayBond
    replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX
    Personal crusade?! I haven't really said much in this thread other than point out the walks. I was just trying to get more viewpoints on this discussion, and I have made very little effort to impress an opinion here.

    By overrated I meant that the average baseball fan probably considers Ryan one of the handful of best pitchers ever, when I believe he's actually closer to around 20th. Like I said in the Red Sox thread, in the grand scheme of things, 18th-22nd best is tremendous and certainly places Ryan among the elite, but when you begin to scrutinize the pitchers at that level, I think noticeable differences emerge and that there is a big difference between the 5 or 10 best ever and guys 10-15 spots lower. So IMO, there is a noticeable difference in a pitcher who is arguably the greatest ever, and certainly among the top 5 (Clemens), and a pitcher that falls 15-20 spots lower (Ryan), especially when most people automatically put Ryan in the top 5 or 10.
    Crusade? I better not tell him that Ryan's not in my top 35

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by FlashGordon
    I understand that XX considers Ryan "the most overrated pitcher of all time," and therefore might take it as a personal crusade to see to it that others feel the same way; but in the end, most of the discussion will always be purely academic. I truly became a baseball fan when Clemens was the Red Sox ace and never forgave Duquette for giving up on him. That said, I still bear a grudge that it took that kind of a dope slap to get the Rocket to start producing to his full potential again. I just don't think it's fair to Nolan Ryan to suggest that he isn't fit to polish Clemens' cleats.
    Personal crusade?! I haven't really said much in this thread other than point out the walks. I was just trying to get more viewpoints on this discussion, and I have made very little effort to impress an opinion here.

    By overrated I meant that the average baseball fan probably considers Ryan one of the handful of best pitchers ever, when I believe he's actually closer to around 20th. Like I said in the Red Sox thread, in the grand scheme of things, 18th-22nd best is tremendous and certainly places Ryan among the elite, but when you begin to scrutinize the pitchers at that level, I think noticeable differences emerge and that there is a big difference between the 5 or 10 best ever and guys 10-15 spots lower. So IMO, there is a noticeable difference in a pitcher who is arguably the greatest ever, and certainly among the top 5 (Clemens), and a pitcher that falls 15-20 spots lower (Ryan), especially when most people automatically put Ryan in the top 5 or 10.

    Like I said in the Red Sox thread, the basic difference between Ryan and Clemens is that Ryan was great at dominating games, Clemens was great at dominating seasons.

    Leave a comment:


  • FlashGordon
    replied
    To reframe this discussion away from the simplicity of a "who's better" vote, the original discussion was whether or not Clemens vs. Nolan Ryan was, as DoubleX put it, "a matter of night and day."

    At no point did I ever try to argue that Ryan was a better pitcher than Clemens, only that trying to claim that Ryan was nowhere near Clemens' class was an unjust underestimation of his achievements and contributions. I mean we're not comparing Mike Stanley and Clemens here. In fact, the roster of Cy Young winners is filled with names of one-hit wonders who were nowhere near Ryan's class, let alone Clemens. As we approach the summit of baseball's best, the air gets rarified and the numbers are huge. Ryan holds all kinds of distinctions that Clemens never will, which does not have to take away from Roger's legacy anymore than Roger should detract from Ryan's.

    I understand that XX considers Ryan "the most overrated pitcher of all time," and therefore might take it as a personal crusade to see to it that others feel the same way; but in the end, most of the discussion will always be purely academic. I truly became a baseball fan when Clemens was the Red Sox ace and never forgave Duquette for giving up on him. That said, I still bear a grudge that it took that kind of a dope slap to get the Rocket to start producing to his full potential again. I just don't think it's fair to Nolan Ryan to suggest that he isn't fit to polish Clemens' cleats.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tigerfan1974
    replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX
    Simple question - who was better?

    This actually started as a tangent discussion in a thread in the Red Sox forum, so I thought I'd remove it to here. I was surprised to see some Red Sox fans argue in favor of Ryan over Clemens.
    As big a Nolan fan as I am, I have to say Roger has been the better pitcher.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bluesteve32
    replied
    Originally posted by barzilla
    You have to be kidding with this one right? Is this poll merely designed to find the sentimental idiots out there? Heck, I'm from southern Houston and can get to Alvin from here in less than fifteen minutes (Ryan lives in Alvin). My sister coached his daughter in volleyball. Moreover, Ryan is a lot more likeable than Clemens. Even considering all that, I would be bonkers to vote for him.
    I tend to agree, sadly. So I respectfully abstain.

    Leave a comment:


  • KCGHOST
    replied
    This is one of those polls that should lead to revocation of BBF posting privileges if you get it wrong.

    Leave a comment:


  • RuthMayBond
    replied
    Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
    Having said that, if there was a million bucks on the line for one AB to put the ball in play, I'd rather face Clemens.
    Now if only that was the question

    Leave a comment:


  • barzilla
    replied
    You have to be kidding with this one right? Is this poll merely designed to find the sentimental idiots out there? Heck, I'm from southern Houston and can get to Alvin from here in less than fifteen minutes (Ryan lives in Alvin). My sister coached his daughter in volleyball. Moreover, Ryan is a lot more likeable than Clemens. Even considering all that, I would be bonkers to vote for him.

    Leave a comment:


  • RogersMaris
    replied
    Originally posted by digglahhh
    I imagine this will be closer than Thomas vs. Gehrig, but it really shouldn't.
    Is this poll a joke?

    Leave a comment:


  • 538280
    replied
    Clemens by a mile.

    Leave a comment:


  • Blackout
    replied
    Clemens beats him in pretty much every category except for strike outs

    and strike outs dont mean squat when you walk so many people too

    Leave a comment:

Ad Widget

Collapse
Working...
X