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Roger Clemens vs. Nolan Ryan?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose
    We can take a poll on what the next poll should be.
    Lou Brock or Rickey Henderson?
    Pete Rose or Ty Cobb?
    Mark McGwire or Hank Aaron?

    We've had too many polls of late that in no way would this most informed electorate keep it a close vote.
    Ok, well then how about a new question to at least steer this discussion into more of a balanced discussion...

    Do people think there is a sizeable difference between Clemens' and Ryan's careers, or are the two pretty close?

    IMO, in the grand scheme of things, being a consideration of all pitchers ever, yeah the two are close. But when you get up closer to them, and really begin to scrutinize, I think Clemens has a noticeable lead.

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    • #32
      I have Clemens 4th all time...and Ryan somewhere in the low 20s.

      Pretty large gap.

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      • #33
        I would say that there careers are a bit similar. But when it comes down to it Clemens is a much better pitcher than Ryan. Clemens has a pretty good lead over Ryan in all time standings.
        go sox.

        Pigskin-Fever

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        • #34
          Originally posted by DoubleX
          Do people think there is a sizeable difference between Clemens' and Ryan's careers, or are the two pretty close?
          I have Clemens rated as the 3rd best pitcher of all time, Ryan 24th. That's a pretty sizable difference. My top 25:

          1.Greg Maddux (don't comment. Sick of fighting Maddux/Clemens)
          2.Walter Johnson
          3.Roger Clemens
          4.Satchel Paige
          5.Lefty Grove
          6.Cy Young
          7.Bob Gibson
          8.Pete Alexander
          9.Tom Seaver
          10.Warren Spahn
          11.Bob Feller
          12.Pedro Martinez
          13.Christy Mathewson
          14.Smokey Joe Williams
          15.Robin Roberts
          16.Randy Johnson
          17.Juan Marichal
          18.Carl Hubbell
          19.Gaylord Perry
          20.Dazzy Vance
          21.Fergie Jenkins
          22.Jim Palmer
          23.Phil Niekro
          24.Nolan Ryan
          25.Hoyt Wilhelm

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          • #35
            My position has always been that Clemens is the better pitcher, but I also don't deny that I've seen him in his less glorious days as well. For all of his dominance, Clemens never registered a single post-season win in his Red Sox days and had developed a reputation as a man who couldn't bring his game to a new level when the stakes were big. He packed on the pounds and certainly didn't have the fans on his side when he was driven out of town, even though he should have.

            For that reason, I actually find his two years in Toronto to be his best. Sure the numbers for the 2001 season were impressive, but his back-to-back Cy Youngs for an also-ran team that didn't have nearly the diverse talent the Yankees had (especially in the closer slot) is far more stunning: that and the contrast they pose vs. his last 4 seasons in Boston. You'll also notice that over those two years he pitched 14 CGs, but since then has only pitched 4. He was a true work horse in a Blue Jays uni and I only wish he could have given half that effort in his last years in Boston.

            I guess my point isn't so much that Ryan is godlike as it is that Clemens has a few chinks in his armor that don't make him completely untouchable. I also remember 2002 when Pedro Martinez went 20-4 with a 2.26 ERA and even 2003 when, despite a 14-4 record, posted a 2.22 ERA but really didn't stand a chance in either year of winning a Cy Young. In the end, it's almost a crap shoot if a pitcher can produce an impressive season AND get a Cy Young.

            2007 World Series Champions
            The Boston Red Sox

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            • #36
              Originally posted by FlashGordon
              In the end, it's almost a crap shoot if a pitcher can produce an impressive season AND get a Cy Young.
              7 crap shoots though?

              Clemens did have the midseason slump, but he's more than redeemed himself for that, IMO, with what he's been doing at the end of his career. ERA considerations also play into this for me since Clemens has been so dominant and has racked up so many wins in a very offensive-geared era, and one in which starters are robbed of wins by the 5-man rotation and over-reliance on bullpens (of course, that also cuts against Clemens in some ways as he was afforded more rest in his career).

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              • #37
                Am I being too brash, have to admit I have not read all the replys but these two guys don't belong on the same page. One guy was a thrower, exciting to watch, those no-hitters, all those strikeouts. The other guy was a pitcher, probably one that would make most top ten lists and even further up the ladder.
                Who would you want on your team, it's Roger.

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                • #38
                  Clemens and it isn't even close

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                  • #39
                    Certainly not as ridiculous as Griffey vs. Speaker though is it? There's been some pretty brutal ones.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                      Certainly not as ridiculous as Griffey vs. Speaker though is it? There's been some pretty brutal ones.
                      How close do you have both pairs on your respective position lists?
                      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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                      • #41
                        Just about as ridiculous

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                        • #42
                          Guys, remember that if Nolan Ryan played with better teams as Roger Clemens did, he will won at least 360 games to be conservative, remember the 1987 season, when Ryan lead the league with 1.69 ERA and 270 Ks, but finished the season with a record of 8-16, that was really bad, imagine if he had enough run support that season, he probable win 20 games and possible the Cy Young Award, not Bedrosian.

                          But at least remember the following, Ryan has 7 more no-hitters than the Rocket.
                          Last Player to hit for the Cycle: Matt Kemp, San Diego Padres (August 14, 2015)

                          Last Pitcher to throw a Regular Season No-Hitter: Max Scherzer, Washington Nationals 2-0 (October 3, 2015)

                          Last Pitcher to throw a Postseason No-Hitter: Roy Halladay, Philadelphia Phillies 4-0 (October 6, 2010)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            This one is no contest.
                            I don't especially LIKE Clemens, but he has been a fantastic pitcher. Don't know if he's my top pick for any given big game, but his regular season effectiveness has been astounding.
                            Ryan had one of the great arms, but he didn't learn how to pitch until he was almost 40. He was a hero of mine until I realized that his stubborn refusal to use his defense was a serious flaw.
                            He reminds me of Bill James using Kingman as an example of the inefficient use of strength in baseball...tried overpower every pitch thrown to him, wouldn't work the count for a good pitch and just put his natural strength to work on it.
                            Ryan is the same to me...tried to make every pitch to every batter a perfect one, go for the K no matter what the situation and how many walks it cost. It is a testament to his amazing conditioning that he held up for SO many pitches and innings, and there is an awful lot to admire about the man, but he just was not a great pitcher for most of his career.
                            "I throw him four wide ones, then try to pick him off first base." - Preacher Roe on pitching to Musial

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                            • #44
                              It wasn't Ryan's fault he played most of his career on mediocre teams.
                              Last Player to hit for the Cycle: Matt Kemp, San Diego Padres (August 14, 2015)

                              Last Pitcher to throw a Regular Season No-Hitter: Max Scherzer, Washington Nationals 2-0 (October 3, 2015)

                              Last Pitcher to throw a Postseason No-Hitter: Roy Halladay, Philadelphia Phillies 4-0 (October 6, 2010)

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Nolan was my hero. He got me re-interested in the game in the mid 80's. I assume the question is with respect to career greatness. And with that being the case, I must select Roger Clemens.

                                But . . . I must correct someone who brought up Nolan's 'wildness'. Yes, he began his career with serious control issues. And once a person's reputation is made, it takes a long time for the umpires to correct that impression in their mindsets. They will give the presumption to the batter on close pitches.

                                But by the time Nolan was an Astro in the 80's, he'd made the transition from a power pitcher to one who was a good pitcher. I wouldn't call him a control pitcher, but he got his BB/g ratio down from the over 4.0/g range to below it.

                                Starting from 1986, he ripped off these walk ratios: 4.1, 3.7, 3.6, 3.6, 3.2, 3.7, 3.9. 5.4. So, he dropped his wildness considerably. His career walk ratio dropped from 4.96 to 4.66.

                                Would Nolan be effective today? I think so. But I base that on the expectation that the umpires were instructed to start calling the strike zone up to the letters again. I don't know if the entire umpiring staff will comply. Once they get into their individual grooves, it could take some time for them all to get with the new directives.

                                If I had just one game to win, and both Roger/Nolan were at the best, there's just no way I would not go with Nolan Ryan.

                                Bill Burgess
                                Last edited by Bill Burgess; 04-17-2006, 07:50 AM.

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