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Roger Clemens vs. Nolan Ryan?

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  • White Knight
    replied
    Originally posted by DonnieBaseball View Post
    Ryan had some amazing genetics for durability, curious how he would have done with the added benefits of HGH.
    I always wondered the same about Bo Jackson. He was extremely muscular, and publically said working out was for wimps! With his raw athletic ability, it's possible with proper training in the gym and PED's, he may have rivaled Arnold Schwarzenegger.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chadwick
    replied
    Originally posted by Blackout View Post
    Clemens is the only pitcher to win 7 Cy Youngs, I don't think ANYBODY will ever do that again.
    So you're saying he was an accumulator! Ha!

    Leave a comment:


  • sturg1dj
    replied
    Originally posted by priceyeah View Post
    Who's to say Nolan Ryan didn't dabble into PED's. After all he was on the Texas Rangers in the early 90's. He looked awful "thick", and had some suspected teammates such as Rafael Palmeiro, Juan Gonzalez, Ivan Rodriguez, Jose Canseco. I always wondered how he escaped suspicion. I'm not defending Clemens (I never cared for him even before the PED thing), but it sucks that it is now impossible to compare players from this era without the PED thing coming up.
    the same way Clemens was above suspicion for so long. He's a gold 'ole boy who was "always" bigger and "always" threw hard...so throw natural aging out the window.

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  • priceyeah
    replied
    Who's to say Nolan Ryan didn't dabble into PED's. After all he was on the Texas Rangers in the early 90's. He looked awful "thick", and had some suspected teammates such as Rafael Palmeiro, Juan Gonzalez, Ivan Rodriguez, Jose Canseco. I always wondered how he escaped suspicion. I'm not defending Clemens (I never cared for him even before the PED thing), but it sucks that it is now impossible to compare players from this era without the PED thing coming up.

    Leave a comment:


  • White Knight
    replied
    Originally posted by SABR Matt View Post
    Alright...who here voted for Ryan so I can beat them over the head.

    Dudes...this ain't even close.
    The anti-PED haters are the ones voting for Ryan, and a few Red Sox fans holding grudges.

    Leave a comment:


  • White Knight
    replied
    Originally posted by ElHalo View Post
    I can think of legitimate arguments for Thomas over Gehrig (though I wouldn't agree with any of them). But there's no excuse on this one.
    Bleh, name one.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheMadDog31
    replied
    Originally posted by sopclod View Post
    Here's a different question: who had better stuff?

    I think the issue isn't a wide gap in ability, but rather how each pitcher went about his business. Ryan's "effectively wild" approach just wasn't as consistently good as Clemen's more controlled strategy.

    In other words, performance enhancing drugs might have given you more mph on the fastball or more stamina, but it wouldn't change the way you pitch. Are we talking about Ryan throwing 110?
    I would take Clemens' splitter and slider over Ryan's fastball and curve any day.

    I could care less about this steroids controversy. It's been made bigger than what it should be. He could've avoided all this publicity and just admitted (we still do not know 100% if he even did yet) and he could've been a lot less scrutinized.

    Clemens and this story has been quiet for quite a while now. A bit odd...

    Leave a comment:


  • sopclod
    replied
    Here's a different question: who had better stuff?

    I think the issue isn't a wide gap in ability, but rather how each pitcher went about his business. Ryan's "effectively wild" approach just wasn't as consistently good as Clemen's more controlled strategy.

    In other words, performance enhancing drugs might have given you more mph on the fastball or more stamina, but it wouldn't change the way you pitch. Are we talking about Ryan throwing 110?

    Leave a comment:


  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike90 View Post
    Do we know when Clemens started taking steroids? Do any of us have a clue about how it affects players?
    Did you read my post #115. Clemens own words. We could either believe Andy misheard or misremembered, thats what Clemens said, or we could believe Andy got it right. I believe Andy, what reason would he have to make up that story.

    Add to that his former trainer Brian McNamee said he injected Clemens in 1998-2000- 2001. McNamee was under the threat of criminal prosecution if he lied about the events, is he going to make up that story and hang himself.
    McNamee said he injected Pettite and Knobloch as well as Clemens. Pettite and Knobloch admitted. So what did McNamee do, just toss Clemens into the trio........for what.
    The only thing missing here is a video, isn't this one easy to see, if we just use common sense.
    By standing and fighting, appearing before that panel Roger dug a deeper hole. He got knocked out of the box in that room, at that hearing....................where is Mariano Rivera when he was needed the most, Roger needed some relief, badly.

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  • Mike90
    replied
    Do we know when Clemens started taking steroids? Do any of us have a clue about how it affects players?

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Consider this:

    During Ryan's incredible stretch as an old guy, he was going for ERA+ around 120 for a couple of years.

    During Clemen's stretch at roughly the same age (presumably on 'roids), he was going for ERA+ near or over 200.

    Could Ryan have posted ERA+ near what Clemens did if he were on roids? Probably not, but we will never know.

    clemens pre-roid days were far and away better than Ryan's pre- Rangers career.

    Just something to think about.

    Leave a comment:


  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    My choice, Clemens was always the better pitcher, compared to Ryan.
    That aside some of Clemens numbers in later years will always be under a cloud of suspicion, his image is really tarnished, still one of the greatest.

    As for when was he using. He himself told Andy Pettite he used in the year 1995 two years before going to Toronto, this admission came around the year 2000 or 2001. His answer to that, Andy misheard him, claims he was speaking about his wife using for a photo layout..................anyone believe that one.
    It was later found that his wife did use but that was in 2003, so how could he have been speaking about her to Andy in 2001.

    It's too bad he chose to go down that road, one of the greatest now with some of his numbers in doubt.

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by Seattle1 View Post
    Plus, now we know that Clemens was on drugs the whole time.
    We absolutely do not know that. The conjecture is Clemens did not start using until he went to Toronto. The "whole time" is flat-out wrong.

    Leave a comment:


  • sturg1dj
    replied
    Originally posted by Seattle1 View Post
    Plus, now we know that Clemens was on drugs the whole time.
    I really hate that argument. I feel we are comparing what the player ACTUALLY did, not what he was capable of doing naturally.


    regardless of what was flowing through his veins we know that Roger Clemens was a better pitcher most of the time (although Nolan Ryan had days where he was better than anyone).

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike90
    replied
    Originally posted by Seattle1 View Post
    Plus, now we know that Clemens was on drugs the whole time.
    Really? You must know some info I don't.

    Leave a comment:

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