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Roger Clemens vs. Nolan Ryan?

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  • Seattle1
    replied
    Probably a lot of people are voting for Clemens because he is still playing and his career exploits are still fresh in most people's minds. I voted for Ryan because I think he was a little better. If someone were to magically give me the choice, do you want Roger Clemens in his prime or Nolan Ryan in his prime for your pitcher on your baseball team, I would say Nolan Ryan.

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  • Sports Fan 07
    replied
    Originally posted by KCGHOST
    This is one of those polls that should lead to revocation of BBF posting privileges if you get it wrong.
    LOL

    Roger Clemens, and it isn't even close.

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  • BaseballHistoryNut
    replied
    I agree with all of this, but I'm not going to say that his numbers last year, in and of themselves, constitute circumstantial evidence of guilt. I don't know of anything except his numbers which anyone can lean on.

    Can you imagine, if they'd had steroids in baseball in the late 1930's, what they'd have said about Grove's winning FOUR e.r.a. titles after age 35 in Fenway?

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  • Sultan_1895-1948
    replied
    Originally posted by BaseballHistoryNut
    He isn't suddenly the size of Mark McGwire, with titanic muscles. As far as I'm concerned, he's clean and even the 7th of those titles was legit. If it wasn't, the other 6th still were and that's STILL one more than any pitcher in the history of MLB except the incomparable Lefty Grove.
    Not going to speculate or accuse Roger of anything...but if there's one thing this whole mess should have taught us, its that there isn't one specific "body type" to look for.

    Not every hitter who uses steroids or HGH is going to see the same results as Bonds allegedly did. Raffy wasn't going to end up like Bonds no matter how many weights he lifted, because he was taking a certain type and amount to achieve his desired goals. And in the end, that's what its all about. What does the player want to get from them. Raffy apparently didn't want to beef up. He wanted lean strength with endurance help to remain fresh through the long grind; something paramount at his age. Then, a guy like Sanchez would most likely work-out his legs primarily, and he would become more explosive and have more endurance with that explosiveness.

    So to just say that Roger's head hasn't increased in size, or that he hasn't turned into the incredible hulk, therefore he's innocent..well..I can't get with that. Different amounts, different types, different workouts on different body parts...all geared for the player to meet his goals. My opinion, is that at most, a pitcher can add anywhere from 3-5 mph on his fastball by strengthening crucial muscles in the legs and torso, while keeping things flexible in the shoulder/forearm area by sticking with high reps/lower weight. Stamina and recovery time is the big benefit.

    Even at that...I would say the game favors the hitters by at least 70/30 right now, and even a steroid pitcher against a clean hitter doesn't have a level playing field. Maybe goes to 55/45 at best. When you throw an already great hitter on the stuff, to quote Donnie Brasco, fugedaboudit. Pitchers have no shot because of conditions of the game. Hitters margin of error skyrockets, pitchers think the answer is to throw harder not smarter, and they feed right into the hands of these muscle-heads holding rocket launchers.

    And we also can't assume that just because someone was more careful/discreet, and doesn't have ties to Balco or some other place, that they're completely innocent. Where does that leave us? Can we trust anyone? Bud/Fehr didn't leave us with much of a choice.

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  • four tool
    replied
    I agree with just about everything you said. The sheer number or era titles for both of them is like Ruth's HR titles or Cobb's batting titles, almost too many to understand.
    I fluctuate between Grove and WJ as #1 all time, but for me Clemens is right behind those 2.

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  • BaseballHistoryNut
    replied
    I really, REALLY don't want to think so. I have the guy as my #2 all-time pitcher, behind only the man who somehow won nine ERA titles in an artificially shortened career which was played entirely in hitters' paradises (i.e., Grove). I've been a huge Clemens fan for 2 decades, and I'd hate to find out he's a fraud. But if he is, I hope it's like Bonds--i.e., he had a legitimately awesome, Hall of Fame career for a great many years, and only joined the "club" at the end.

    Anyway, as I said, there is NO circumstantial evidence--in the sense that I'm willing to accept--of Clemens' guilt. His head isn't twice as big. He doesn't have heart fibrillations. He isn't suddenly the size of Mark McGwire, with titanic muscles. As far as I'm concerned, he's clean and even the 7th of those titles was legit. If it wasn't, the other 6th still were and that's STILL one more than any pitcher in the history of MLB except the incomparable Lefty Grove.

    BHN

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  • four tool
    replied
    So did the PEDs account for all the previous ERA titles?

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  • BaseballHistoryNut
    replied
    Clemens on PED's?

    That's what we all wonder about, especially after his Adjusted ERA of historic proportions at age 43, last year, and the velocity at which he was then throwing the ball. But he hasn't suddenly gotten twice as big; his head isn't twice as big; he doesn't suffer from heart fibrillations; and people around him aren't all being arrested and/or giving him up for his PED use.

    I've made it real clear that on these PED questions, I realize we're not in a criminal courtroom and we don't need anything remotely near proof of "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt." But I've yet to see one iota of circumstantial evidence against Clemens, unless his stats at age 43--including the velocity of his fastball--constitute circumstantial evidence. I think it takes a little more than that.

    But I'm open to the possibility I'm wrong on the velocity issue. I knew the moment Bonds started hitting 480+ feet HR's in mid-2000 that he was cheating... though, again, a big part of it was how precipitately huge he had become. But even if I hadn't seen him day-in and day-out, the sight of those all-of-a-sudden Ruthian bombs would have done it for me. Heaven knows that when that long-distance HR guy came forward with his data about Bonds' career HR-distance records, anyone who heard/read his story could no longer be in doubt/denial.

    If I knew more about pitching, perhaps I would feel the same way about a 43-year-old man who threw as hard as Clemens did last year. As it is, I don't.

    BHN

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  • mort
    replied
    clemens = HGH

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  • Yankillaz
    replied
    Who was better at what?

    Pitchin?
    Or beating up a Mets player (Piazza or Ventura)?

    C'mon, Clemens by far.

    Leave a comment:


  • BaseballHistoryNut
    replied
    Originally posted by blackout805
    Clemens is the only pitcher to win 7 Cy Youngs, I don't think ANYBODY will ever do that again. Thats his #1 record, just as amazing as Nolans 5000k


    Ryan never won one.
    Clemens is also the only pitcher not named "Lefty Grove" to win over five ERA titles. And no, he didn't win six. He won SEVEN, which is 40% more than any other MLB pitcher ever, except the man who won 9.

    I never hear announcers talk about that stat. If they did, more people would appreciate Clemens for the monster career he's had... especially in that much of it occurred in Fenway, another distinction he shares with Grove.

    BHN

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  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    If there was ever a mismatch this is it.Nolan was exciting to watch, all those strikeouts, 7 no-hitters. Strictly as a great pitcher, of value to his team, not on the same page as Roger.

    Leave a comment:


  • csh19792001
    replied
    Originally posted by adam42381
    Looks like football fans aren't nearly as smart as I thought they would be on baseball issues.
    Who said football fans are smart on any particular issue?

    Leave a comment:


  • adam42381
    replied
    Looks like football fans aren't nearly as smart as I thought they would be on baseball issues. My fantasy board currently has Clemens trailing Ryan 6-2 in a poll of greatest living pitcher. http://www.askthecommish.com/forum/tm.asp?m=79150

    Leave a comment:


  • Honus Wagner Rules
    replied
    Originally posted by [email protected]
    Oh, Chris, what nonsense? Ryan was the hardest pitcher in history to hit, according to statistics. Just because Roger was a greater pitcher, why do you feel compelled to minimize Nolan Ryan, who was also a very great pitcher, and my hero. Didn't Bill James say that Nolan should be revered? I think he did. It's in my book.
    Bill James also said that Ryan was overrated and the hero worship he got as a Ranger was an emmbarassment. He also said that Ryan was unique, did things no one had done before or is likely to do in the future, and easily a HoFer.
    Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 05-02-2006, 04:20 AM.

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