Roger Clemens vs. Nolan Ryan?

[Bill Burgess]

You can count on me for trying to find the truth and not just spout some opinion that doesn't seem to be backed up by facts

Facts? When I need you for facts, I'll give them to you.

And those seasons were only for Nolan's 1989-93 Dallas Rangers seasons. What about his work with the Mets/Angels/Astros? Huh? What about those years, sir??

[RuthMayBond]

Facts? When I need you for facts, I'll give them to you.

Until then, don't confuse you with them?

<And those seasons were only for Nolan's 1989-93 Dallas Rangers seasons. What about his work with the Mets/Angels/Astros? Huh? What about those years, sir??>

You didn't advance any of their pitchers as evidence

[Metal Ed]

And those seasons were only for Nolan's 1989-93 Dallas Rangers seasons. What about his work with the Mets/Angels/Astros? Huh? What about those years, sir??

Funny, I was gonna ask you the same question.

[Metal Ed]

Texas Rangers, 1989-1993:

1989: Scored 4.29 R/G, allowed 4.41, league average 4.29
1990: Scored 4.17 R/G, allowed 4.3, league average 4.3
1991: Scored 5.12 R/G (first in the league), allowed 5.02, league average 4.49
1992: Scored 4.21 R/G, allowed 4.65, league average 4.32
1993: Scored 5.15 R/G, allowed 4.64, league average 4.71.


So....by this metric, in Nolan's five years, their offense was way above average twice, way below average once, slightly below average once, and exactly average once.

Their pitching was worse than average three times, better than average once, and exactly average once.

So forget about his team's pitching carrying its weak offense to a decent record, at least by this metric.

Someone else with the time can go game by game to see what kind of support Nolan received. Actually, Bill can do that - it's his case to prove.

[Bill Burgess]

Someone else with the time can go game by game to see what kind of support Nolan received. Actually, Bill can do that - it's his case to prove.

Huh? How did that happen? I voted for Clemens! I rank Nolan 19 all time, despite his being my hero. I'm just trying to garner some respect for him. So, if I have to do, uh, WORK, I'll just declare victory, and let it go at that. My greatest pitchers. Numbers following represent Bill James rankings.

1. Walter Johnson 1
2. Christy Mathewson 7
3. Pete Alexander 3
4. Cy Young 4
5. Roger Clemens 11
6. Lefty Grove 2
7. Warren Spahn 5
8. Satchel Paige, NL
9. Smokey Joe Williams, NL
10. Greg Maddux 14
11. Tom Seaver 6
12. Bob Feller 12
13. Juan Marichal 21
14. Pedro Martinez 29
15. Mordecai Brown 20
16. Bob Gibson 8
17. Addie Joss 80
18. Randy Johnson 49
19. Nolan Ryan 24
20. Amos Rusie 28
21. Rube Waddell
22. Sandy Koufax
23. Steve Carlton
24. Eddie Plank
25. "Bullet Joe" Rogan, NL
26. Dazzy Vance
27. Urban Shocker
28. Kid Nichols
29. Hoyt Wilhelm
30. Ed Walsh
31. Carl Mays
32. Hoss Radbourne
33. Carl Hubbell
34. Whitey Ford
35. John Clarkson
36. Tim Keefe
37. "Monte" Ward
38. Jim Palmer
39. Robin Roberts
40. Herb Pennock
41. Dizzy Dean
42. Catfish Hunter
43. Ferguson Jenkins
44, Don Sutton
45. Don Drysdale
46. Gaylord Perry
47. Phil Niekro
48. Ted Lyons
49. Rick Ferrell
50. Bob Lemon
51. Clark Griffth

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Clemens beats him in pretty much every catagory except for strike outs

and strike outs dont mean squat when you walk so many people too

Plus, isn't Roger second all-time in strikeouts? Clemens wasn't exaclty a shmuck when it comes to strikeouts.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Oh, Chris, what nonsense? Ryan was the hardest pitcher in history to hit, according to statistics. Just because Roger was a greater pitcher, why do you feel compelled to minimize Nolan Ryan, who was also a very great pitcher, and my hero. Didn't Bill James say that Nolan should be revered? I think he did. It's in my book.

Bill James also said that Ryan was overrated and the hero worship he got as a Ranger was an emmbarassment. He also said that Ryan was unique, did things no one had done before or is likely to do in the future, and easily a HoFer.

[adam42381]

Looks like football fans aren't nearly as smart as I thought they would be on baseball issues. My fantasy board currently has Clemens trailing Ryan 6-2 in a poll of greatest living pitcher. http://www.askthecommish.com/forum/tm.asp?m=79150

[csh19792001]

Looks like football fans aren't nearly as smart as I thought they would be on baseball issues.

Who said football fans are smart on any particular issue?

[SHOELESSJOE3]

If there was ever a mismatch this is it.Nolan was exciting to watch, all those strikeouts, 7 no-hitters. Strictly as a great pitcher, of value to his team, not on the same page as Roger.

[BaseballHistoryNut]

Clemens is the only pitcher to win 7 Cy Youngs, I don't think ANYBODY will ever do that again. Thats his #1 record, just as amazing as Nolans 5000k


Ryan never won one.

Clemens is also the only pitcher not named "Lefty Grove" to win over five ERA titles. And no, he didn't win six. He won SEVEN, which is 40% more than any other MLB pitcher ever, except the man who won 9.

I never hear announcers talk about that stat. If they did, more people would appreciate Clemens for the monster career he's had... especially in that much of it occurred in Fenway, another distinction he shares with Grove.

BHN

[Yankillaz]

Who was better at what?

Pitchin?
Or beating up a Mets player (Piazza or Ventura)?

C'mon, Clemens by far.

[mort]

clemens = HGH

[BaseballHistoryNut]

Clemens on PED's?

That's what we all wonder about, especially after his Adjusted ERA of historic proportions at age 43, last year, and the velocity at which he was then throwing the ball. But he hasn't suddenly gotten twice as big; his head isn't twice as big; he doesn't suffer from heart fibrillations; and people around him aren't all being arrested and/or giving him up for his PED use.

I've made it real clear that on these PED questions, I realize we're not in a criminal courtroom and we don't need anything remotely near proof of "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt." But I've yet to see one iota of circumstantial evidence against Clemens, unless his stats at age 43--including the velocity of his fastball--constitute circumstantial evidence. I think it takes a little more than that.

But I'm open to the possibility I'm wrong on the velocity issue. I knew the moment Bonds started hitting 480+ feet HR's in mid-2000 that he was cheating... though, again, a big part of it was how precipitately huge he had become. But even if I hadn't seen him day-in and day-out, the sight of those all-of-a-sudden Ruthian bombs would have done it for me. Heaven knows that when that long-distance HR guy came forward with his data about Bonds' career HR-distance records, anyone who heard/read his story could no longer be in doubt/denial.

If I knew more about pitching, perhaps I would feel the same way about a 43-year-old man who threw as hard as Clemens did last year. As it is, I don't.

BHN

[four tool]

So did the PEDs account for all the previous ERA titles?