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Roger Clemens vs. Nolan Ryan?

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  • #76
    Originally posted by RuthMayBond
    You can count on me for trying to find the truth and not just spout some opinion that doesn't seem to be backed up by facts
    Facts? When I need you for facts, I'll give them to you.

    And those seasons were only for Nolan's 1989-93 Dallas Rangers seasons. What about his work with the Mets/Angels/Astros? Huh? What about those years, sir??

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    • #77
      Originally posted by [email protected]
      Facts? When I need you for facts, I'll give them to you.
      Until then, don't confuse you with them?

      <And those seasons were only for Nolan's 1989-93 Dallas Rangers seasons. What about his work with the Mets/Angels/Astros? Huh? What about those years, sir??>

      You didn't advance any of their pitchers as evidence
      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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      • #78
        Originally posted by [email protected]

        And those seasons were only for Nolan's 1989-93 Dallas Rangers seasons. What about his work with the Mets/Angels/Astros? Huh? What about those years, sir??

        Funny, I was gonna ask you the same question.

        Comment


        • #79
          Texas Rangers, 1989-1993:

          1989: Scored 4.29 R/G, allowed 4.41, league average 4.29
          1990: Scored 4.17 R/G, allowed 4.3, league average 4.3
          1991: Scored 5.12 R/G (first in the league), allowed 5.02, league average 4.49
          1992: Scored 4.21 R/G, allowed 4.65, league average 4.32
          1993: Scored 5.15 R/G, allowed 4.64, league average 4.71.


          So....by this metric, in Nolan's five years, their offense was way above average twice, way below average once, slightly below average once, and exactly average once.

          Their pitching was worse than average three times, better than average once, and exactly average once.

          So forget about his team's pitching carrying its weak offense to a decent record, at least by this metric.

          Someone else with the time can go game by game to see what kind of support Nolan received. Actually, Bill can do that - it's his case to prove.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Metal Ed
            Someone else with the time can go game by game to see what kind of support Nolan received. Actually, Bill can do that - it's his case to prove.
            Huh? How did that happen? I voted for Clemens! I rank Nolan 19 all time, despite his being my hero. I'm just trying to garner some respect for him. So, if I have to do, uh, WORK, I'll just declare victory, and let it go at that. My greatest pitchers. Numbers following represent Bill James rankings.

            1. Walter Johnson 1
            2. Christy Mathewson 7
            3. Pete Alexander 3
            4. Cy Young 4
            5. Roger Clemens 11
            6. Lefty Grove 2
            7. Warren Spahn 5
            8. Satchel Paige, NL
            9. Smokey Joe Williams, NL
            10. Greg Maddux 14
            11. Tom Seaver 6
            12. Bob Feller 12
            13. Juan Marichal 21
            14. Pedro Martinez 29
            15. Mordecai Brown 20
            16. Bob Gibson 8
            17. Addie Joss 80
            18. Randy Johnson 49
            19. Nolan Ryan 24
            20. Amos Rusie 28
            21. Rube Waddell
            22. Sandy Koufax
            23. Steve Carlton
            24. Eddie Plank
            25. "Bullet Joe" Rogan, NL
            26. Dazzy Vance
            27. Urban Shocker
            28. Kid Nichols
            29. Hoyt Wilhelm
            30. Ed Walsh
            31. Carl Mays
            32. Hoss Radbourne
            33. Carl Hubbell
            34. Whitey Ford
            35. John Clarkson
            36. Tim Keefe
            37. "Monte" Ward
            38. Jim Palmer
            39. Robin Roberts
            40. Herb Pennock
            41. Dizzy Dean
            42. Catfish Hunter
            43. Ferguson Jenkins
            44, Don Sutton
            45. Don Drysdale
            46. Gaylord Perry
            47. Phil Niekro
            48. Ted Lyons
            49. Rick Ferrell
            50. Bob Lemon
            51. Clark Griffth

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            • #81
              Originally posted by blackout805
              Clemens beats him in pretty much every catagory except for strike outs

              and strike outs dont mean squat when you walk so many people too
              Plus, isn't Roger second all-time in strikeouts? Clemens wasn't exaclty a shmuck when it comes to strikeouts.
              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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              • #82
                Originally posted by [email protected]
                Oh, Chris, what nonsense? Ryan was the hardest pitcher in history to hit, according to statistics. Just because Roger was a greater pitcher, why do you feel compelled to minimize Nolan Ryan, who was also a very great pitcher, and my hero. Didn't Bill James say that Nolan should be revered? I think he did. It's in my book.
                Bill James also said that Ryan was overrated and the hero worship he got as a Ranger was an emmbarassment. He also said that Ryan was unique, did things no one had done before or is likely to do in the future, and easily a HoFer.
                Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 05-02-2006, 05:20 AM.
                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                Comment


                • #83
                  Looks like football fans aren't nearly as smart as I thought they would be on baseball issues. My fantasy board currently has Clemens trailing Ryan 6-2 in a poll of greatest living pitcher. http://www.askthecommish.com/forum/tm.asp?m=79150
                  Johnny Damon:

                  Looks Like Jesus
                  Acts Like Judas
                  Throws Like Mary

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by adam42381
                    Looks like football fans aren't nearly as smart as I thought they would be on baseball issues.
                    Who said football fans are smart on any particular issue?

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      If there was ever a mismatch this is it.Nolan was exciting to watch, all those strikeouts, 7 no-hitters. Strictly as a great pitcher, of value to his team, not on the same page as Roger.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by blackout805
                        Clemens is the only pitcher to win 7 Cy Youngs, I don't think ANYBODY will ever do that again. Thats his #1 record, just as amazing as Nolans 5000k


                        Ryan never won one.
                        Clemens is also the only pitcher not named "Lefty Grove" to win over five ERA titles. And no, he didn't win six. He won SEVEN, which is 40% more than any other MLB pitcher ever, except the man who won 9.

                        I never hear announcers talk about that stat. If they did, more people would appreciate Clemens for the monster career he's had... especially in that much of it occurred in Fenway, another distinction he shares with Grove.

                        BHN

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Who was better at what?

                          Pitchin?
                          Or beating up a Mets player (Piazza or Ventura)?

                          C'mon, Clemens by far.
                          "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                          George Brett

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                          • #88
                            clemens = HGH

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                            • #89
                              Clemens on PED's?

                              That's what we all wonder about, especially after his Adjusted ERA of historic proportions at age 43, last year, and the velocity at which he was then throwing the ball. But he hasn't suddenly gotten twice as big; his head isn't twice as big; he doesn't suffer from heart fibrillations; and people around him aren't all being arrested and/or giving him up for his PED use.

                              I've made it real clear that on these PED questions, I realize we're not in a criminal courtroom and we don't need anything remotely near proof of "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt." But I've yet to see one iota of circumstantial evidence against Clemens, unless his stats at age 43--including the velocity of his fastball--constitute circumstantial evidence. I think it takes a little more than that.

                              But I'm open to the possibility I'm wrong on the velocity issue. I knew the moment Bonds started hitting 480+ feet HR's in mid-2000 that he was cheating... though, again, a big part of it was how precipitately huge he had become. But even if I hadn't seen him day-in and day-out, the sight of those all-of-a-sudden Ruthian bombs would have done it for me. Heaven knows that when that long-distance HR guy came forward with his data about Bonds' career HR-distance records, anyone who heard/read his story could no longer be in doubt/denial.

                              If I knew more about pitching, perhaps I would feel the same way about a 43-year-old man who threw as hard as Clemens did last year. As it is, I don't.

                              BHN

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                So did the PEDs account for all the previous ERA titles?

                                Comment

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