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Roger Clemens vs. Nolan Ryan?

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  • Honus Wagner Rules
    replied
    Originally posted by blackout805
    Clemens beats him in pretty much every catagory except for strike outs

    and strike outs dont mean squat when you walk so many people too
    Plus, isn't Roger second all-time in strikeouts? Clemens wasn't exaclty a shmuck when it comes to strikeouts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Originally posted by Metal Ed
    Someone else with the time can go game by game to see what kind of support Nolan received. Actually, Bill can do that - it's his case to prove.
    Huh? How did that happen? I voted for Clemens! I rank Nolan 19 all time, despite his being my hero. I'm just trying to garner some respect for him. So, if I have to do, uh, WORK, I'll just declare victory, and let it go at that. My greatest pitchers. Numbers following represent Bill James rankings.

    1. Walter Johnson 1
    2. Christy Mathewson 7
    3. Pete Alexander 3
    4. Cy Young 4
    5. Roger Clemens 11
    6. Lefty Grove 2
    7. Warren Spahn 5
    8. Satchel Paige, NL
    9. Smokey Joe Williams, NL
    10. Greg Maddux 14
    11. Tom Seaver 6
    12. Bob Feller 12
    13. Juan Marichal 21
    14. Pedro Martinez 29
    15. Mordecai Brown 20
    16. Bob Gibson 8
    17. Addie Joss 80
    18. Randy Johnson 49
    19. Nolan Ryan 24
    20. Amos Rusie 28
    21. Rube Waddell
    22. Sandy Koufax
    23. Steve Carlton
    24. Eddie Plank
    25. "Bullet Joe" Rogan, NL
    26. Dazzy Vance
    27. Urban Shocker
    28. Kid Nichols
    29. Hoyt Wilhelm
    30. Ed Walsh
    31. Carl Mays
    32. Hoss Radbourne
    33. Carl Hubbell
    34. Whitey Ford
    35. John Clarkson
    36. Tim Keefe
    37. "Monte" Ward
    38. Jim Palmer
    39. Robin Roberts
    40. Herb Pennock
    41. Dizzy Dean
    42. Catfish Hunter
    43. Ferguson Jenkins
    44, Don Sutton
    45. Don Drysdale
    46. Gaylord Perry
    47. Phil Niekro
    48. Ted Lyons
    49. Rick Ferrell
    50. Bob Lemon
    51. Clark Griffth

    Leave a comment:


  • Metal Ed
    replied
    Texas Rangers, 1989-1993:

    1989: Scored 4.29 R/G, allowed 4.41, league average 4.29
    1990: Scored 4.17 R/G, allowed 4.3, league average 4.3
    1991: Scored 5.12 R/G (first in the league), allowed 5.02, league average 4.49
    1992: Scored 4.21 R/G, allowed 4.65, league average 4.32
    1993: Scored 5.15 R/G, allowed 4.64, league average 4.71.


    So....by this metric, in Nolan's five years, their offense was way above average twice, way below average once, slightly below average once, and exactly average once.

    Their pitching was worse than average three times, better than average once, and exactly average once.

    So forget about his team's pitching carrying its weak offense to a decent record, at least by this metric.

    Someone else with the time can go game by game to see what kind of support Nolan received. Actually, Bill can do that - it's his case to prove.

    Leave a comment:


  • Metal Ed
    replied
    Originally posted by [email protected]

    And those seasons were only for Nolan's 1989-93 Dallas Rangers seasons. What about his work with the Mets/Angels/Astros? Huh? What about those years, sir??

    Funny, I was gonna ask you the same question.

    Leave a comment:


  • RuthMayBond
    replied
    Originally posted by [email protected]
    Facts? When I need you for facts, I'll give them to you.
    Until then, don't confuse you with them?

    <And those seasons were only for Nolan's 1989-93 Dallas Rangers seasons. What about his work with the Mets/Angels/Astros? Huh? What about those years, sir??>

    You didn't advance any of their pitchers as evidence

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Originally posted by RuthMayBond
    You can count on me for trying to find the truth and not just spout some opinion that doesn't seem to be backed up by facts
    Facts? When I need you for facts, I'll give them to you.

    And those seasons were only for Nolan's 1989-93 Dallas Rangers seasons. What about his work with the Mets/Angels/Astros? Huh? What about those years, sir??

    Leave a comment:


  • RuthMayBond
    replied
    Originally posted by [email protected]
    Glad to see I can still count on you for backup.
    You can count on me for trying to find the truth and not just spout some opinion that doesn't seem to be backed up by facts

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Originally posted by RuthMayBond
    He did have one good year in 92

    <Bobby Witt>

    One year in 90

    < and Charlie Hough.>

    Ryan wasn't even with Texas in Hough's only nice win%s 86 & 87
    Glad to see I can still count on you for backup.

    And those seasons were only for Nolan's 1989-93 Dallas Rangers seasons. What about his work with the Mets/Angels/Astros? Huh? What about those years, sir??
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 04-19-2006, 07:21 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • RuthMayBond
    replied
    Originally posted by [email protected]
    On Nolan's Dallas Rangers team were Kevin Brown
    He did have one good year in 92

    <Bobby Witt>

    One year in 90

    < and Charlie Hough.>

    Ryan wasn't even with Texas in Hough's only nice win%s 86 & 87

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Originally posted by Metal Ed
    I feel like I'm taking those Zoolander Mugatu crazy pills, here. "It so utterly favors pitcher on weak teams." Shouldn't it then favor Ryan, who, according to his supporters, was on weak teams? Shouldn't this be the very stat that helps Ryan the most?
    On Nolan's Dallas Rangers team were Kevin Brown, Bobby Witt and Charlie Hough. So despite the weakness of the team, they had some very capable pitchers to prevent the TWPCT from making Nolan appear good.

    If you're gonna keep on with those Zoolander Mugatu crazy pills, I beg you to get yourself some therapy. Get yourself some help before it's to late. I say this as one who has your best interests at heart!

    Leave a comment:


  • Metal Ed
    replied
    Originally posted by [email protected]

    Of what real value can it have, since it so utterly favors pitchers on weak teams (Young, Johnson, Alexander, Carlton, Vance),.

    I feel like I'm taking those Zoolander Mugatu crazy pills, here. "It so utterly favors pitcher on weak teams." Shouldn't it then favor Ryan, who, according to his supporters, was on weak teams? Shouldn't this be the very stat that helps Ryan the most?

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    Originally posted by csh19792001
    I posted in regards to this exact problem recently, but it would probably take me an hour to find it. Suffice it to say, SABR's Baseball Research Journal had a very nice piece attempting to ameliorate this exact problem in the last issue.

    Basically, the authors illustrated exactly what you're talking about by using Maddux's 95' season juxtaposed with Carlton's 1972 season. Even if he'd gone 21-0, by the WPCT differential method, he still wouldn't even be remotely close to Carlton.

    And using their methodology (which partly incorporated the "wins above team" metric), I remember Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Cy Young, and Pete Alexander being among the top few (I'm almost certain Clemens and Randy Johnson were 1 and 2 alltime). Also, Whitey Ford was up there- and he obviously never, ever COULD be, if we used the old WPCT differential method.

    So I see the need to attempt to level the field so that the guys on great teams don't come out looking like the best mainly because they were on great teams, but there's a better way.

    Does anyone have the last Research Journal handy? There's a great article titled: "Has Greg Maddux Employed the 'Bagwell Gambit' in His Career?"
    I don't have that right at hand, but as I recall, the method was better than the comparison to the team results, but IMO still wasn't as good as comparing the subject pitcher to a league average pitcher who was then adjusted to the park

    Jim Albright

    Leave a comment:


  • Baseball Guru
    replied
    Originally posted by digglahhh
    I imagine this will be closer than Thomas vs. Gehrig, but it really shouldn't.

    Not sure what the final tally was in the Thomas/Gehrig poll but this one sure isnt close...

    Leave a comment:


  • csh19792001
    replied
    Originally posted by digglahhh
    You know what the problem with the winning % over team is?

    When you have a great pitcher on the mound, its easy to be a good team. When you have a poor pitcher on the mound, its easy to be a bad team.

    Even, Carlton in '72, its like overstating things, actually its like using the word in its own definition. Of course the Phillies were good in '72 with Carton on the mound- he was a HOF pitcher during his career year! That's kinda the point, isn't it...


    And WP% over team is biased toward the ace who has no back-up in the rotation.

    The pitcher's performance is the most predictive of whether his team is going to win. If all you have to do is score 2 runs to win, even a bad team can do that most of the time...
    I posted in regards to this exact problem recently, but it would probably take me an hour to find it. Suffice it to say, SABR's Baseball Research Journal had a very nice piece attempting to ameliorate this exact problem in the last issue.

    Basically, the authors illustrated exactly what you're talking about by using Maddux's 95' season juxtaposed with Carlton's 1972 season. Even if he'd gone 21-0, by the WPCT differential method, he still wouldn't even be remotely close to Carlton.

    And using their methodology (which partly incorporated the "wins above team" metric), I remember Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Cy Young, and Pete Alexander being among the top few (I'm almost certain Clemens and Randy Johnson were 1 and 2 alltime). Also, Whitey Ford was up there- and he obviously never, ever COULD be, if we used the old WPCT differential method.

    So I see the need to attempt to level the field so that the guys on great teams don't come out looking like the best mainly because they were on great teams, but there's a better way.

    Does anyone have the last Research Journal handy? There's a great article titled: "Has Greg Maddux Employed the 'Bagwell Gambit' in His Career?"

    Leave a comment:


  • Taco De Muerte
    replied
    Clemens, not even close. Ryan was rarely the best pitcher on his own team throughout his career.

    Leave a comment:

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