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Sal Bando/Ken Boyer

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  • Sal Bando/Ken Boyer

    Interesting matchup, I think. I'd like to see what you guys have to say.
    16
    Sal Bando
    18.75%
    3
    Ken Boyer
    81.25%
    13

  • #2
    --Boyer kicks Bando's butt. I like Bando and think is is underrated, but Boyer is in my top 10 and Bando might make my top 20 if I was feeling generous.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by leecemark
      --Boyer kicks Bando's butt. I like Bando and think is is underrated, but Boyer is in my top 10 and Bando might make my top 20 if I was feeling generous.
      Really, Mark? Their careers are the same length, Bando is a slightly better hitter, though Boyer is a better fielder. Bando was a great intangilble player, the leader and captain of the 1972-1974 A's. Bando had the better peak. According to Win Shares, it's no contest, Bando by a mile. Why is Boyer so much better? I usually have them both around 10th.

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      • #4
        --By a mile? James has them 11 and 12. Maybe a slightly overank Boyer and underrate Bando and they should be closer. I still like Boyer though.

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        • #5
          Ihave Bando by small, but distinct, margin. Neither is a Top Ten for me though.
          Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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          • #6
            Originally posted by leecemark
            --By a mile? James has them 11 and 12. Maybe a slightly overank Boyer and underrate Bando and they should be closer. I still like Boyer though.
            We all know James doesn't always follow his system. His rating system shows Bando ahead of at least 3 players ahead of him (Darrell Evans, Paul Molitor, Brooks Robinson), and Bando beats Boyer on every one of the WS elements.

            I think Bando gets a bad rap too for being the captain of the "Swinging A's". In reality, he was about as good a captain as the team could have possibly had. He kept them under control, and kind of served as a spokesman for the team with their owner, Charlie Finley. I said this in another post:

            Bando was one of the greatest intangible players of all time. He was the leader of the Oakland A's who won three straight championships 1972-1974 and helped to keep the team together during some of their famed brawls. Reggie Jackson in his autobiography talks at some length about how great Bando was for the team and how he kept everyone focused on their goals-winning the World Series. To quote him:

            "Sal Bando was the Godfather. Capo di capo. Boss of all bosses on the Oakland A's. We all had our roles, we all contributed, but Sal was the leader and everyone knew it. He didn't make a big deal out of it, but when something needed to be said, he said it."

            Bando was the leader of the team. Without him, the A's wouldn't have been the same. The Baseball Page calls him "the glue that held the A's together".

            Where do I rank Bando? For a long time I've had him 8th among 3Bmen, and I haven't seen a great argument for why I should lower him. I think Bando had one hell of a peak, and was one of the greatest intangible players of all time. Maybe a HOFer, but maybe not. I don't see Boyer being as good, but that's just me.

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            • #7
              I have to admit 538, you have convinced me to bump Bando up a few spots just into my top 20, and perhaps actually in front of Ron Cey. However, I think Boyer is generally very, very underrated and I have him firmly in my top 10 at 3B (usually at 8 or 9) and as someone I feel should probably be in the Hall. Bando comes in about 10 spots lower for me. I'd be interested to see a Cey/Bando poll.

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              • #8
                love your musings and quotes of sal bando, 538280. they took me back to the old days.
                and love the pic of jimmy, by the way.
                "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

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                • #9
                  I would think they would be about a push.
                  Personally I favor Bando, as I like the 70's A's.

                  What about Ron Cey? Do y'all think he would be close to these two?
                  1968 and 1984, the greatest ever.

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                  • #10
                    Boyer had slightly more power, hit for much better average, and was a much better defender. It's not really that close for me.

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                    • #11
                      I'll take Boyer...but it's VERY close. No this mile stuff.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 538280
                        We all know James doesn't always follow his system. His rating system shows Bando ahead of at least 3 players ahead of him (Darrell Evans, Paul Molitor, Brooks Robinson), and Bando beats Boyer on every one of the WS elements.

                        I think Bando gets a bad rap too for being the captain of the "Swinging A's". In reality, he was about as good a captain as the team could have possibly had. He kept them under control, and kind of served as a spokesman for the team with their owner, Charlie Finley. I said this in another post:

                        Bando was one of the greatest intangible players of all time. He was the leader of the Oakland A's who won three straight championships 1972-1974 and helped to keep the team together during some of their famed brawls. Reggie Jackson in his autobiography talks at some length about how great Bando was for the team and how he kept everyone focused on their goals-winning the World Series. To quote him:

                        "Sal Bando was the Godfather. Capo di capo. Boss of all bosses on the Oakland A's. We all had our roles, we all contributed, but Sal was the leader and everyone knew it. He didn't make a big deal out of it, but when something needed to be said, he said it."

                        Bando was the leader of the team. Without him, the A's wouldn't have been the same. The Baseball Page calls him "the glue that held the A's together".

                        Where do I rank Bando? For a long time I've had him 8th among 3Bmen, and I haven't seen a great argument for why I should lower him. I think Bando had one hell of a peak, and was one of the greatest intangible players of all time. Maybe a HOFer, but maybe not. I don't see Boyer being as good, but that's just me.
                        Interesting post. In light of our recent conversations about Derek Jeter, I was wondering if you award him any intangible/leadership points?

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                        • #13
                          I've got Boyer four whole spots above Bando
                          Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DoubleX
                            Interesting post. In light of our recent conversations about Derek Jeter, I was wondering if you award him any intangible/leadership points?
                            I personally don't care much for Jeter, because I'm sick of hearing on ESPN the "Captain Courage" type crap. But, Jeter has been the captain of the Yankees, and a very good intangible player. He should receive some credit for that.

                            But, I don't see Jeter getting the kind of credit Bando does. Bando was an outspoken leader, the guy who kept a gang of crazy personailities together and winning. He kept the feuds with Finley a separte issue to playing the game, and kept his teammates focused. While Jeter has been a good captain, I don't think he's the kind of leader Bando was. I just can't see Jeter leading a group like the '72-'74 A's.

                            I do have another question-would anyone else consider Bando to be a HOF quality player? He's been a player I've been looking at for some time, and I just think his great playing as well as his role as the leader of one of the greatest teams of all time may make him a good HOF choice. He doesn't seem to generate much attention though. IMO, Bando's a full notch better than Ken Boyer, who seems to get lots of attention in that regard. So I'm just wondering
                            Last edited by 538280; 03-15-2006, 10:57 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Tigerfan1974
                              What about Ron Cey? Do y'all think he would be close to these two?
                              I made a long post comparing them a while back. They're extremely similar players really, but Bando was much better at his best. Here's the post:

                              I thought it would be fun to take a look at and compare two very similar players who get very little press even here at BBF and are always underrated and overlooked.

                              Ron Cey and Sal Bando were close to contemporary third baseman. Bando was a few years older and thus got his start in the mid 1960s while Cey didn't reach the majors until 1971. They were extremely similar players. Neither were high average hitters at all, with BAs of .254 for BAndo and .261 for Cey, but they walked a lot and hit for good power and thus had secondary averages of .325 (Cey) and .305 (Bando). Both could hold their own at third, but weren't great fielders by any stretch. Most of their value came in the batter's box. They were both key members of great teams and probably didn't receive enough credit for what they did for those teams. Both played in pitcher's parks. Both were very good college players for Pac 10 schools. Really, the more I think about it it's unbelieveable how similar their characteristics were. Here are their career totals:

                              Code:
                              playerID	nameLast  nameFirst StartYr	EndYr	G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	IBB	HBP	SH	SF	GIDP	AVG	OBP	SLG
                              ceyro01	Cey	Ron	1971	1987	2073	7162	977	1868	328	21	316	1139	24	29	1012	1235	117	62	26	82	185	.261	.354	.445
                              
                              playerID	nameLast	  nameFirst  StartYr     EndYr   G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	IBB	HBP	SH	SF	GIDP	AVG	OBP	SLG
                              bandosa01	Bando	Sal	1966	1981	2019	7060	982	1790	289	38	242	1039	75	46	1031	923	69	75	65	57	149	.254	.352	.408
                              Looking at those numbers, it would appear they are very similar and that Cey deserves to rate slightly ahead. But, I have Bando in my top 100 players (#79) and rated as the 8th best third baseman in history. I do rate Cey higher than most at #15 all time at third, but still far behind Sal.

                              How can such similar players be that far apart? There are many reasons:

                              1.Although they ended up with about the same career totals, Bando was better at his best. His top 3 Win Share seasons were 36, 31, and 29 while Cey's were 28, 27, and 27. Bando in 1969 had a monster season, batting .281 when the league average was .250 along with 111 walks which was good for third in the league, and with 31 home runs and 113 RBI his power wasn't hurting either. Plus, he was playing in a low run scoring environment, with the league OPS at 688, and in pitcher's park with a park factor of 96. He had 36 Win Shares that season. Cey had all those same skills and certainly did all those things in different seasons, but he never put it all together in one year for a season like that. Bando in 1973 when he led the league total bases, extra base hits, and doubles and led his team to a World Series title was also better than Cey ever was. Overall, Bando had a much better peak.

                              2.Bando was one of the greatest intangible players of all time. He was the leader of the Oakland A's who won three straight championships 1972-1974 and helped to keep the team together during some of their famed brawls. Reggie Jackson in his autobiography talks at some length about how great Bando was for the team and how he kept everyone focused on their goals-winning the World Series. The line you'll find everywhere about him is "the glue who held the A's together". Cey, from what I've read, was a very good man who like all the other Dodgers was active in the community, but there's little evidence that he had value on the standings outside of his stats like Bando.

                              3.Bando did much better in MVP voting. He finished second in the vote in 1971 behind only his teammate Vida Blue, meaning that MVP voters regarded him as the best position player in the AL that year. He also finished 3rd in the vote in 1974 and 4th in 1973. He ended his career 155th all time in BBRef's "MVP shares". Cey only finished top 10 once in the vote (8th in 1977) and is 634th all time in MVP shares.

                              4.Cey was a very slow baserunner, and was nicknamed "The Penguin" because of his waddling running style. Bando was hardly a gazelle, but he was a smart baserunner who could steal bases when needed.

                              5.The numbers above are unfair to Bando somewhat because he came along later and played a few years in the pitching rich 1960s. Cey came along later and thus stuck around until the home run explosion of 1987 and the late 80s, and never played in the 1960s. Bando's raw BA, OBP, and SLG are worse than Cey's, but their relative stats are about the same. Bando's relative line was 100/110/109 while Cey's was 99/107/114.

                              Both are very, very underrated, of course. But, Bando I believe has a very good case for the Hall of Fame. Cey not as much, although he was a great player and the best of the famous Dodger infield of the late 70s and early 80s (better than Garvey). I have heard Bando referred to as "a poor man's Ron Cey". He certainly isn't that.
                              Last edited by 538280; 03-15-2006, 11:02 AM.

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