*MVP Award Discussion Thread*

[Ubiquitous]

Whatever happens this year the one guy I am absolutely sure will not win an MVP regardless of performance is Barry Bonds.

Personally I hope he does great, not as vindication or rubbing ones nose in it bus as a barometer of what we will see in the future.

Part of me thinks that their is no way the writers are going to keep McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds out of the Hall. But a big part of me can't see them getting strong support either. Perhaps it takes them a decade and the gradual wearing down of the stigma to get in. I personally could see a case against Sosa and McGwire but the Bonds case would be the hardest to deny even though he has become the most famous user. I think unless something more drastic then what we already have happens Barry would make it in withing the first 5 years of eligibility. By that time McGwire has already taken some of the steam out of the uproar.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

RUTH'S MVP candidate and Cy Young (if there was one) seasons

1916 Cy Young Award - Johnson would have been only competition. Win Shares that year - Ruth 37, Johnson 36.

Rank in league:

FIRST- SHO (9), ERA (1.75), H/9IP (6.40), GS (41)

THIRD- SO (170), Wins (23)

FOURTH- CG (23)

FIFTH- WHIP (1.075), W/L% (.657)

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1919 - Ruth - 43 WS

League Leader: - second place in red

OBP (.456) (.436), SLG (.657) (.530), OPS+ (219) (166), R (103) (96), TB (284) (279), HR (29) (10), RBI (114) (101), RC (128) (110), Xtra BH (75) (65) (note: 8th in B.A. (.322) - missed triple crown by 62 % points)

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1920 - Ruth - 51 WS

League Leader:

OBP (.532) (.483), SLG (.847) (.632), OPS+ (255) (181), R (158) (137), HR (54) (19), RBI (137) (122), RC (205) (179), Xtra BH (99) (86) BB (150) (97), TB (325) (316) (note: 4th in B.A. (.376) - missed triple crown by 31 % points, 2nd in pwr/spd)

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1921 - Ruth - 53 WS

League Leader:

OBP (.512) (.452), SLG (.846) (.606), OPS+ (239) (167), R (177) (132), HR (59) (24), RBI (171) (139), RC (233) (162), Xtra BH (119) (80), BB (145) (103), TB (457) (365), PWR/SPD (26.4) (21.8) (note: 3rd in B.A.)

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1923 - Ruth - 55 WS, wins only MVP

League Leader:

OBP (.545) (.481), SLG (.764) (.632), OPS+ (239) (194), R (151) (133), HR (41) (29), RBI (131) (130), RC (216) (163), Xtra BH (99) (87), BB (170) (198), TB (399) (350), PWR/SPD (24.0) (22.2) (note: 2nd in B.A. (.393) - missed triple crown by 10 % points)

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1924 - Ruth - 45 WS

League Leader:

B.A. (.378) (.359), OBP (.513) (.441), SLG (.739) (.533), OPS+ (220) (149), R (143) (115), HR (46) (27), RC (199) (129), Xtra BH (92) (72), BB (142) (102), TB (391) (306), PWR/SPD (26.4) (21.8) (note: 2nd in RBI - missed triple crown by 8 RBI, 3rd in pwr/spd, 4th in hits)

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1926 - Ruth - 45 WS

League Leader:

OBP (.516) (.445), SLG (.737) (.564), OPS+ (227) (154), R (139) (135), HR (47) (19), RC (187) (132), BB (144) (116), TB (365) (329), PWR/SPD (17.8) (16.9) (note: 2nd in B.A. (.372) - missed triple crown by 6 % points, 2nd in xtra base hits )

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1927 - Ruth - 45 WS

League Leader:

OBP (.486) (.475), SLG (.772) (.765), OPS+ (226) (221), R (158) (149), HR (60) (47), BB (137) (109), (note: 2nd in RC, TB, RBI, xtra BH, 4th in pwr/spd, 7th in B.A.)

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1928 - Ruth - 45 WS

League Leader:

SLG (.709) (.648), OPS+ (208) (194), R (163) (139), HR (54) (27), RBI (142) (142), RC (175) (169), Xtra BH (91) (87), BB (137) (105), TB (380) (367) (note: 2nd in OBP - 3 points behind Gehrig)

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1929 - Ruth - 32 WS

League Leader:

SLG (.697) (.642), OPS+ (194) (173), HR (46) (35), RC (149) (149) (note: 2nd in RBI - (three behind Simmons), 3rd in OBP, TB, Xtra BH -- 5th in R -- 8th in B.A. -- 10th in BB)

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1930 - Ruth - 39 WS

League Leader:

OBP (.493) (.473), SLG (.732) (.721), OPS+ (211) (203), HR (49) (41), BB (136) (128), (note: 2nd in R, RC, 3rd in TB, B.A., Xtra BH , 4th in RBI, 5th in pwr/spd)

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1931 - Ruth - 38 WS

League Leader:

OBP (.495) (.451), SLG (.700) (.662), OPS+ (219) (195), HR (46) (46), BB (128) (127), RC (185) (183), R (163) (149) (note: 2nd in TB, RBI, and B.A. (.373), 3rd in Xtra BH)
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[Appling]

Imagine what Ruth might have done, had he taken better care of himself!

Great summary, Sultan! How is it you know so much about George Herman?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Imagine what Ruth might have done, had he taken better care of himself!

Great summary, Sultan! How is it you know so much about George Herman?

I made that post a long time ago on the "Babe Ruth thread". Just dedication I guess.

[yest]

Barry Bonds deserved the following MVP's.
1990

Sandberg deserved it in 1990
bold is leauge leader

runs
Bonds 104
sandberg 116

Hits
Bonds 156
sandberg 188

doubles
Bonds 32
sandberg 30

triples
Bonds 3
sandberg 3

HRs
Bonds 33
sadberg 40

RBIs
Bonds 114
sandberg 100

Steals
Bonds 52 (13 times caught)
sandberg 25 (7 times caught)

Walks
Bonds 93
sandberg 50

Extra Base Hits
Bonds 68
sadberg 73

Total Bases
Bonds 293
sadberg 344

Times on Base
Bonds 252
sandberg 239

BA
Bonds 301
sandberg 306

OBP
Bonds 406
sandberg 354

Slugging
Bonds 565
sandberg 559

not to mention that Sandberg was a gold glove 2nd baseman (who actuly desevred it)

[CrimeInTheCards]

Ted Williams should of won atleast five mvp's in his career. Dimaggio stole ( literally) multiple MVP'S that rightfully belonged to williams.

Bonds, mantle, aaron, mays, all should of atleast won three more MVP'S.

Tim raines, IMO, the most underrated player of alltime should of won three MVP'S in his career. Ott should of won a couple too.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Dimaggio stole ( literally) multiple MVP'S that rightfully belonged to williams.

Literally? So in the dark of night, dawning a ski mask and a crowbar, he snuck through a window and made off with them? Interesting.

[Victory Faust]

If I'm not mistaken, didn't Ted Williams win the Triple Crown one year, yet someone else took the MVP?

Bonds? No. Even without the juice, he won MVP awards that should have gone to others, as has been pointed out in this thread by other members.

Bonds' career from 1999-present is one great big asterisk as far as I'm concerned. I don't care what the official response of Bud Selig is -- in my mind, Bonds' performance is totally tainted, and I discount everything he did during that period. Ditto for the steroid-enhanced McGwire, Sosa and Palmerio.

As far as I'm concerned, Roger Maris is still the true single-season home run king for a 162-game season. Those ridiculous 70-homer seasons don't count in my little world.

I'm not trying to convince folks who think otherwise that my opinion is the right one. But it is my opinion, and, in my mind at least, Bonds' MVP awards in recent years are null and void.

[iPod]

Willie Mays probably deserved 7 MVP awards (1954, 1955, 1958, 1960, 1962, 1965, and 1966), but he only won two in 1954 and 1965. He was snubbed a number of times. The worst one was probably in 1958, when Ernie Banks just plain robbed him.

1958 isn't all that unreasonable really. He hit only 29 HR and had only 96 RBIs, which is still nice and yeah it's more about rates, but he was really famous by that point, and numbers like those had to be disappointing for the average fan. 29 HRs was his lowest total since his rookie year. Also his SBs had dropped off a little, from 40 in '56 to 38 in '57 to 31 in '58. It was an incredible year for him, and he probably did deserve the award over Banks, but I can understand there being a backlash for not putting up the gaudy drool-inducing power and speed numbers that everyone had begun to expect from him at that point. Also, I really don't think we should throw out the fact that that was his first year in SF, and the Bay Area media was really tearing into him pretty shamelessly in the late 50s; it was not pretty stuff, and when in my best estimate he started to develop the dark, nasty underside with which he slowly began to be ever so slightly associated. Not to mention the fact that he went from NY, the center of the baseball universe, to the opposite end of the country, one of what probably was considered at that time baseball's two western outposts, farther away physically from the baseball world.

Meanwhile, you have Ernie Banks, this awesome guy that everyone loves, playing in Wrigley Field at shortstop, who put together a triple crown type season. If you don't focus on things like OPS, it's pretty easy to just say ".313 BA, 47 HR, 129 RBI? At short? And Mays had only 29 HR? Banks has gotta be MVP."

No, the real absolute joke in my opinion was 1960. The Giants were I think the preseason favorites that year and were a big time disappointment, but come on... Dick freakin' Groat? Don freakin' Hoak? Groat didn't even slug .400 that year.

[Appling]

If I'm not mistaken, didn't Ted Williams win the Triple Crown one year, yet someone else took the MVP?

TEd Williams had TWO Triple-Crown seasons (1942 and 1947) -- and was not voted MVP in either of those years. People decry the "injustice" of Joe DiMaggio winning the MVP in 1941 (Ted's .406 BA season) but that was really a close call. Much worse in my opinion was Ted losing out to Joe Gordon in 1942, and then to Joltin' Joe in 1947.

Boston finished second in 1942, nine games behind the Yankees. The Yanks won the pennant with superior pitching -- why should that be a blemish on Ted's resume'? IMO Joe was really being "punished" because he used "sole support of his mother" to get a deferment. (But he soon "corrected" for that!)

[Ubiquitous]

Alex Rodriguez has probably deserve at least one or two more MVP's in his career so far. But it does look as though he has finally broken the ice and will win a few more from here on out. In 1996 in a very close race he loses to Juan Gonzalez basically because of Ken Griffey Jr. his teammate. In 1998 he had one of the greatest SS seasons of all time and it wasn't even good enough to make him the highest voted SS of the year. Nomar and Jeter both finished ahead of him. In 2000 he loses to Giambi and Thomas. 2001 he finishes in 6th. In 2002 he loses to a streak, a totally inferior SS ends up winning the MVP because of a win streak.

[Myankee4life]

Gehrig won the triple crown in 1934 and finished 5th!!!! behind Cochcrane, Gehringer, Gomez, and Rowe.

[ElHalo]

the answer to your question is "barry bonds".

even if one can come up with a valid argument that he did not deserve the 7 that he has received and take away 1 or 2 or 3 -- in the face of others arguing that he actually has deserved more -- he still would have the most deserved mvp awards.

I see Rajah as deserving:

1917
1920
1921
1922
1923
1924
1925
1928
1929

With arguments to be made for 1927 and 1931.

[ElHalo]

TEd Williams had TWO Triple-Crown seasons (1942 and 1947) -- and was not voted MVP in either of those years. People decry the "injustice" of Joe DiMaggio winning the MVP in 1941 (Ted's .406 BA season) but that was really a close call. Much worse in my opinion was Ted losing out to Joe Gordon in 1942, and then to Joltin' Joe in 1947.

Boston finished second in 1942, nine games behind the Yankees. The Yanks won the pennant with superior pitching -- why should that be a blemish on Ted's resume'? IMO Joe was really being "punished" because he used "sole support of his mother" to get a deferment. (But he soon "corrected" for that!)

I think you're missing out on the reasons why Gordon won that MVP. It wasn't so much for his numbers (which were fantastic) as it was for his defense... he was the best defensive second baseman anyone living had ever seen (except for a few old time Bid McPhee fans), and probably had more defensive buzz around him than anyone since Rabbit Maranville. Couple that with Williams' reputation for defensive indifference, and it's not unreasonable to see Flash winning the MVP.

[RuthMayBond]

I think you're missing out on the reasons why Gordon won that MVP. It wasn't so much for his numbers (which were fantastic) as it was for his defense... he was the best defensive second baseman anyone living had ever seen (except for a few old time Bid McPhee fans)

C'mon, some would have seen Collins OR Lajoie OR Doerr OR Gehringer OR Frisch OR Herman OR ...