*MVP Award Discussion Thread*

[Yankillaz]

Is WAR identifiable? Because back then writers didn't knew who had the highest WAR.

And how about a player's impact? Boyer won in 1964 because he had a lot of narratives. Can someone tell what was the belief in baseball when Boyer won?


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[GiambiJuice]

You forgot 1964. He was clearly the best player that year.

11.1 WAR, 47 home runs, best defensive outfielder in the game, and he finished SIXTH???

[RuthMayBond]

The same thing happened to Bonds in 1991 and Pujols a few times and Willliams a bunch of times and just about every other all-timer. They really hate giving out more than 2-3 per player.

Unfortunately, this isn't true of Gold Gloves ... and Jeter :grouchy:hissyfit:

[Bothrops Atrox]

You forgot 1964. He was clearly the best player that year.

The same thing happened to Bonds in 1991 and Pujols a few times and Willliams a bunch of times and just about every other all-timer. They really hate giving out more than 2-3 per player.

They kinda had to with Bonds from 2001-2004, due to what he was doing at the time, but generally speaking...

And "You" hasn't posted for like 7 years, fwiw.

[JR Hart]

Willie Mays probably deserved 7 MVP awards (1954, 1955, 1958, 1960, 1962, 1965, and 1966), but he only won two in 1954 and 1965. He was snubbed a number of times. The worst one was probably in 1958, when Ernie Banks just plain robbed him.

You forgot 1964. He was clearly the best player that year.

[GiambiJuice]

Willie Mays probably deserved 7 MVP awards (1954, 1955, 1958, 1960, 1962, 1965, and 1966), but he only won two in 1954 and 1965. He was snubbed a number of times. The worst one was probably in 1958, when Ernie Banks just plain robbed him.

Banks didn't "rob" Willie in 1958 IMHO. Mays may have been slightly more valuable but it was very close.

Banks had a huge lead in home runs (47 to 29) and RBI (129 to 96). Banks played shortstop and played it well. Banks' WAR that season was 9.4, 2nd in MLB to Mays but not far behind. Obviously WAR didn't exist back then and it is very understandable why Banks won the award.

[Ubiquitous]

The book has defensive win shares by position and total innings played at that position. He also has a top fielding position per year list that lists how many win shares he recieved and how many innings he played that year. Doing that I was able to find 4 years in which Joe Gordon had the most DWS for a second basemen, 9 for Collins, and 3 for Lajoie.

[538280]

Joe Gordon according to DWS was the number one secondbasemen in his league for 4 years. In those 4 years he averaged 5.59 DWS per 1000. In years he wasn't the best he averaged 4.93 over 7 seasons. Eddie Collins was the number one 2Bmen for 9 years and in those 9 years he averaged 5.32 DWS per 1000 and averaged 3.85 the rest of the way.

If we only use Eddie's 4 best seasons just like Joe then he has 6.04 DWS per 1000 seasons.

Joe Gordon was not better then Eddie Collins both in peak and in longevity at least according to DWS.

For Lajoie its harder to get the exact innings and defensive win shares for second base per season since he moved around a lot. But I do have 3 seasons of his peak with known amounts. In those three seasons he averaged 6.92 DWS per 1000, and even if we add his 4th best season and guess with the innings amount he still comes out above Joe Gordon's 4 year peak.

Joe Gordon was not better the Nap Lajoie in both peak and in longevity at least according to DWS.

Hmm, interesting. Shows the problems with viewing a player just on his career per inning average. According to DWS, it appears Gordon really wasn't as good as either.

BTW, where are you getting the in-season defensive Win Shares for Gordon? They don't have that sort of data (offense/defense splits) for player seasons in the Win Shares book, unless you're in the top 40 all time in total WS (which Collins and Lajoie are). I've actually been looking for offense/defense splits in season for some time, so where did you find them?

[ElHalo]

In 1942, Ted had an incredible hitting year:
186 hits, 36 HR, 137 RBI, .356 BA, .499 OBP and .634 SA. Led AL in HR, RBI, BA, OBP and Slg. Pct. (Triple Crown year!)

In 1942 Gordon had:
173 hits, 18 HR, 103 RBI, .322 BA, .409 OBP and .491 Slg. Pct.
A nice year. His only season to hit over .285. But how do these numbers beat out Williams?

Because Williams was essentially a DH, playing Manny Ramirez level defense at the least important defensive position, while Gordon was playing the best defense in the league in the middle infield.

[ElHalo]

Gordon better than Collins AND Lajoie? That would make a great poll, don't bet your house

Defensively speaking only, I've read about a lot of people talk about Gordon at the time as the best second baseman they'd ever seen. The only writer I've ever seen specifically mention him with regard to one of those two was H.G. Salinger, who said that Charlie Gehringer was the closest he had ever seen to somebody being as good defensively as Lajoie ("he has polish that no other second baseman, with the exception of the great Napoleon Lajoie, ever had"), who said seperately that Gordon far outstripped Gehringer defensively.

I'd personally put Gordon third all time at 2B, behind McPhee and Mazeroski.

[Ubiquitous]

Joe Gordon according to DWS was the number one secondbasemen in his league for 4 years. In those 4 years he averaged 5.59 DWS per 1000. In years he wasn't the best he averaged 4.93 over 7 seasons. Eddie Collins was the number one 2Bmen for 9 years and in those 9 years he averaged 5.32 DWS per 1000 and averaged 3.85 the rest of the way.

If we only use Eddie's 4 best seasons just like Joe then he has 6.04 DWS per 1000 seasons.

Joe Gordon was not better then Eddie Collins both in peak and in longevity at least according to DWS.

For Lajoie its harder to get the exact innings and defensive win shares for second base per season since he moved around a lot. But I do have 3 seasons of his peak with known amounts. In those three seasons he averaged 6.92 DWS per 1000, and even if we add his 4th best season and guess with the innings amount he still comes out above Joe Gordon's 4 year peak.

Joe Gordon was not better the Nap Lajoie in both peak and in longevity at least according to DWS.

[Ubiquitous]

Well. obviously as overall players Collins and Lajoie are better mostly because of longevity. They would probably win the poll on rep alone. But, Joe Gordon while he was playing was just as good a fielder.

What metrics have I seen? Defensive Win Shares.

DWS/1000 innings
Joe Gordon-5.11
Nap Lajoie-4.69
Eddie Collins-4.55

Pretty solid lead.

If you only play 11 seasons and have virtually no decline phase then you are going to show up in rate like stats. Lajoie played until he was 41 years old, Collins played basically until 41. Joe played until 35.. What does win shares say about their "peak" defense?

[RuthMayBond]

Well. obviously as overall players Collins and Lajoie are better mostly because of longevity. They would probably win the poll on rep alone. But, Joe Gordon while he was playing was just as good a fielder.

What metrics have I seen? Defensive Win Shares.

DWS/1000 innings
Joe Gordon-5.11
Nap Lajoie-4.69
Eddie Collins-4.55

Pretty solid lead.

Not that everyone is impressed with defensive win shares (ONE measure), and doesn't longevity count for anything?

[538280]

Gordon better than Collins AND Lajoie? That would make a great poll, don't bet your house

Well. obviously as overall players Collins and Lajoie are better mostly because of longevity. They would probably win the poll on rep alone. But, Joe Gordon while he was playing was just as good a fielder.

What metrics have I seen? Defensive Win Shares.

DWS/1000 innings
Joe Gordon-5.11
Nap Lajoie-4.69
Eddie Collins-4.55

Pretty solid lead.

[yest]

Over Aaron, Mays AND Spahn?

Mays hit 347/419/583
Aaron hit 326/386/546
Ashburn hit 350/440/441