Multi-Subject Poll:

[Bill Burgess]

Instead of continuing to bring back around 7 polls regarding Traynor, Wagner, Mathewson, R. Jackson, Rose, Morgan and Joe Jackson, I thought I'd integrate these polls into 1. Save myself a lot of work.

This poll is multiple choice, so vote for all the options that apply to your beleifs. So vote for each subject, if you like.

DO NOT vote only once, and then claim lamely you MISREAD the instructions.

[julusnc]

Instead of continuing to bring back around 7 polls regarding Traynor, Wagner, Mathewson, R. Jackson, Rose, Morgan and Joe Jackson, I thought I'd integrate these polls into 1. Save myself a lot of work.

This poll is multiple choice, so vote for all the options that apply to your beleifs. So vote for each subject, if you like.

DO NOT vote only once, and then claim lamely you MISREAD the instructions.

You sound like ya had a bad day Bill Good Poll.

[Blackout]

sultan, how is Gibson not a top 5 catcher?

[Bill Burgess]

Mark,

Since when did you promote Wagner from 8th to 5th All Time Player? Is he growing on you, again? What's up?

Bill

[Sultan_1895-1948]

sultan, how is Gibson not a top 5 catcher?

I suspect he very well may be, but I have nothing to go by that would warrant an absolute spot. It's unfortunate I know. My heart knows he belongs, but my head won't let me. I was looking for a third option regarding Negro Leaguers that would express that viewpoint, but there wasn't. So I just chose the "no" option.

[Bill Burgess]

I suspect he very well may be, but I have nothing to go by that would warrant an absolute spot. It's unfortunate I know. My heart knows he belongs, but my head won't let me. I was looking for a third option regarding Negro Leaguers that would express that viewpoint, but there wasn't. So I just chose the "no" option.

Understood. That is what posting is for. To explain the hard ones.

Bill

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Thanks for understanding Bill. The vote was without malice; heck the guy was dubbed the "Black Babe Ruth" for cryin' out loud

On a side note: It's good to see Honus put up a goose-egg so far on "ranking him below 10." Here's to hoping it stays that way. Gulp, Gulp, Gulp.

[baseballPAP]

Wow Bill....either I'm pretty much Joe Average with my ratings, or you really drew the lines well. Almost every guy in question was almost right on the line in my ratings!

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Chris (538), can you show your reasons for having Traynor below top 20, and Matty below top 10? Thanks.

[538280]

Chris (538), can you show your reasons for having Traynor below top 20, and Matty below top 10? Thanks.

Both are hopelessly overrated, and I've been over them both a number of times. Here are some links to old posts of mine:

Traynor

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=436853&postcount=12

I've since moved Traynor down two more spots to 22nd, behind McGraw and Chipper Jones.

With Matty, here's another part of an old post I made, with a few additions:

just want to get to Matty for a second.....The statistical evidence doesn't even support him being in the top 10 pitchers of all time, perhaps not event the top 15. I have him 12th, which is an improvement over what the stats give me. Matty, Bill, is not very impressive statistically. His innings pitched don't match other great pitchers of his time like Young, W.Johnson, Alexander, Nichols. Nor do his ERA+. Also, out of those 4 that I mentioned, Matty was also playing in the weakest league. He played for great teams, that inflated his won/lost record and had tremendous defense behind him. His defense adjusted ERA, 3.79, doesn't match up with the aformentioned pitchers. Matty doesn't belong in the top 10 pitchers. His reputation has been ridiculously exaggerated because of his personality. He was a great man, it doesn't mean he was the greatest pitcher ever.

I've looked at Mathewson/Alexander many times, there is just absolutely no reasonable explanation for rating Mathewson over Pete. Pete kills him on almost every statistical measure, yet history seems to have remembered Matty as superior. Why? Simple, this is the drunk against the saint. Matty is one of the most overrated players ever to play the game.

[RuthMayBond]

Wow Bill....either I'm pretty much Joe Average with my ratings, or you really drew the lines well. Almost every guy in question was almost right on the line in my ratings!

True on many of mine as well (many JUST missing a proverbial cut)

[leecemark]

--Bill, maybe there are 8 guys in my top 5 . Honus is arguably the best player ever, so when I don't have to list but just provide a range he makes top 5 status. Some of the cuts were fairly arbitratary. If you'd asked top 50 instead of 40 for Rose he'd have gotten a yes instead of a no.
--Traynor wouldn't have cracked my top 20 by the numbers either. There are probably at least 10 60s and 70s 3B with better statistical cases than Pie. I give him a little boost for being the best 3B of his time though.

[Bill Burgess]

True on many of mine as well (many JUST missing a proverbial cut)

Good! That makes me feel as if I've improved on being able to find those questions which divide us as a community. I do seek the mean, or meridian, or line which divides a consensus.

It's those types of questions which we must work on resolving into a consensus, as a baseball community.

Thanks, guys.

Bill

[Bill Burgess]

--Bill, maybe there are 8 guys in my top 5 . Honus is arguably the best player ever, so when I don't have to list but just provide a range he makes top 5 status. Some of the cuts were fairly arbitrary. If you'd asked top 50 instead of 40 for Rose he'd have gotten a yes instead of a no.

Silly Billy. Yes, I drew the lines of demarcation finely, so as to induce hard choices. Little did I realize, some folks are not easily induced/dissected by such blunt, crude methods!

[RuthMayBond]

It's those types of questions, which we must work on resolving into a consensus, as a baseball community.

I'm not sure why we must. Will you resolve with Sultan that Babe was the best ever?