Multi-Subject Poll:

[Sultan_1895-1948]

To accumulate black ink, they need to lead the league. There is also the gray ink test, which is measured the same way as black ink but to get points you finish top 10 in the categories rather than just first.

Personally I don't care for either of them, don't use them in my rankings. I certainly would reccommend you do the same.

I agree, I don't even consider them in rankings. As I stated before I was just curious on how much Babe took away from Gehrig. He finished second an ungodly number of times.

You're weighted system seems like it would be a step in the right direction. I do think though, that if someone leads the league, it should be worth 10, then 2nd place should be worth 8 at the most. There has to be a little separation there imo.

[538280]

I agree, I don't even consider them in rankings. As I stated before I was just curious on how much Babe took away from Gehrig. He finished second an ungodly number of times.

You're weighted system seems like it would be a step in the right direction. I do think though, that if someone leads the league, it should be worth 10, then 2nd place should be worth 8 at the most. There has to be a little separation there imo.

I kind of like the same method we used for our polls, 12 points for 1st and 9 for 2nd.

The weighted system would certainly work well, it would eliminate two of the biggest problems with Black and Gray Ink. (Black ink is unfair to some players if a league has a few tremendous performers, like Ruth taking ink away from Gehrig, and gray ink because there are players who hang around 9th and 10th in the leauge many years and accumlate more ink than the guys who lead the league, but for a shorter time).

[Bill Burgess]

Thanks for the poll, Bill.

I'll post my responses so people can gripe accordingly

• I rank Traynor exactly 20th at third base.
• I rank Wagner 3rd all-time.
• I rank Mathewson 6th all-time, though I'm highly contemplating dropping him to 8th behind Maddux and Seaver.
• I rank Reggie approximately 38th all-time. My list starts getting shaky once I get past the top 30 or so (haven't looked at them much in-depth past that point).
• I rank Pete 27th all-time.
• I rank Morgan 3rd at second base.
• I support reinstating Jackson and banning Comiskey.
• I rank Gibson as the greatest catcher of all-time.
• I rank Charleston 16th all-time.
• Yikes, I voted wrong on Pop Lloyd I rank him 29th all-time, but voted that he was outside my top 30. Bill, if you're able to make edits to poll results, feel free to make that change.

Props for Matty, Honus, Gibson/Charleston/Lloyd. I find your selection of Josh as #1 catcher is courageous. Most daring. Kudos.

Bill

[Bill Burgess]

I kind of like the same method we used for our polls, 12 points for 1st and 9 for 2nd.

The weighted system would certainly work well, it would eliminate two of the biggest problems with Black and Gray Ink. (Black ink is unfair to some players if a league has a few tremendous performers, like Ruth taking ink away from Gehrig, and gray ink because there are players who hang around 9th and 10th in the leauge many years and accumlate more ink than the guys who lead the league, but for a shorter time).

Chris,

What ever happened with that Black/Grey Ink project you were contemplating? Did you give it up? Could have been intriguing. Why not take a gutsy shot? Suggestion: replace RBIs with OPS+, and Runs with Relative SLG. Ave.


Bill

[Bill Burgess]

I suspect he very well may be, but I have nothing to go by that would warrant an absolute spot. It's unfortunate I know. My heart knows he belongs, but my head won't let me. I was looking for a third option regarding Negro Leaguers that would express that viewpoint, but there wasn't. So I just chose the "no" option.

In general, when the choice is between head/heart, guess which I suggest?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

In general, when the choice is between head/heart, guess which I suggest?

Generally I would agree with you. This is not about heart though Bill. It's about fair, rational rankings based on information we've gathered. If we randomly assume things about NLers, then why not just assume things about anybody and everybody? Should we assume Teddy Ballgame would have hit 60 HR a year in his war years, or that Joe Jackson would have tore it up in the '20's and ended up with a higher career avg than Cobb.

NLers never got their shot and it's beyond unfair. It's ridiculous and deplorable. Blindly placing them at a certain slot though, and taking away a spot from someone of whom we have plenty of legit info to go on, is unfair in it's own right. My heart allows me to feel that it's likely they might have ended up "here" or "there" if they were given their shot and they stayed healthy, but defining a certain spot is too much.

[538280]

Chris,

What ever happened with that Black/Grey Ink project you were contemplating? Did you give it up? Could have been intriguing. Why not take a gutsy shot? Suggestion: replace RBIs with OPS+, and Runs with Relative SLG. Ave.

Bill

I never really said I was going to do it, but I'll give it a shot anyway. Right off the top of my head....

BA (10 point scale)
1st in league-12 points
2nd-9
3rd-8
....and so on

OBP (10 point scale)
1st-12 points
2nd-9
3rd-8
....and so on

SLG (10 point scale)
1st-12 points
2nd-9
3rd-8
....and so on

OPS+ (15 point scale)
1st-20 points
2nd-15
3rd-10
4th-9
5th-8
....and so on

Home runs (10 point scale)
1st-12 points
2nd-9
3rd-8
....and so on

RBI (5 point scale)
1st-5 points
2nd-4
3rd-3
.....and so on down to 5th with one point. No more points past 5th. Same applies for all 5 point scale categories.

Runs Scored (5 point scale)
1st-5
2nd-4
3rd-3
....and so on

Hits (5 point scale)
1st-5
2nd-4
3rd-3
....and so on

The following are also done on 5 point scales: Doubles, Stolen bases, and walks.

Plus two categories (triples and plate appearances) are done on three point scales, where you get 3 points for leading league, 2 for 2nd place, and 1 for third. No points past third.

Also add one point to the players' total for each season they played in every one of their team's games.

How does it sound, Bill and others?

[Bill Burgess]

I never really said I was going to do it, but I'll give it a shot anyway. Right off the top of my head....

How does it sound, Bill and others?

Sounds cool. Why not take it out for a trial run.

For example: Do -

Ruth 1924
Musial 1948
Medwick 1937
Cobb 1911
Lajoie 1901
Wagner 1908

See what happens, and where it leads. You may have a winner on your hands. If not, keep tweaking till something rational emerges. Might need to work it some, and experiment.

Bill

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Looks pretty dang good, although I don't agree with giving points for playing in each of your teams games. The era could impact that a lot with injuries, playing exhibition games during the year, multiple double headers, etc. Also, how can plate appearances be the same as triples? I don't get the PA thing. Walking up to the plate shouldn't count for anything extra.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Should there be a Runs Created one?

Here's Babe's '27 season.

BA - 2
OBP - 10
SLG - 10
OPS+ - 15
HR - 10
RBI - 4
RS - 10
BB - 5

So 66 points with none for HITS, DOUBLES, STOLEN BASES, PLATE APPEARANCES, TRIPLES, or PLAYING IN EACH TEAMS GAMES

[Pghfan987]

Wow-

I couldn't believe how many people voted for Joe Morgan being in the Top 3 at second base. Hornsby, Collins, and Lajoie immediately came to my mind as far as top second basemen, then Morgan. I am not disagreeing necessarily, just surprised that I am alone in this.

I am also surprised with Oscar being a top ten position player by so many people (8). This is the only place I know of that seems to rank Charleston over Gibson as the greatest Negro League position player.

Excellent poll by the way.

Mark

[Bill Burgess]

I couldn't believe how many people voted for Joe Morgan being in the Top 3 at second base. Hornsby, Collins, and Lajoie immediately came to my mind as far as top second basemen, then Morgan. I am not disagreeing necessarily, just surprised that I am alone in this.

Mark,

Who said you are alone in your Morgan surprise? Here's my 2B Top 10.

1. E. Collins
2. R. Hornsby
3. N. Lajoie
4. C. Gehringer
5. J. Robinson
6. J. Morgan
7. R. Sandberg
8. F. Frisch
9. B. DeMoss
10. R. Carew
-------------------
11. C. Biggio
12. B. Grich
13. J. Gordon
14. R. Alomar
15. J. Evers
16. J. Kent
17. N. Fox
18. R. Schoendienst
19. B. McPhee
20. B. Mazeroski

[538280]

Mark,

Who said you are alone in your Morgan surprise? Here's my 2B Top 10.

1. E. Collins
2. R. Hornsby
3. N. Lajoie
4. C. Gehringer
5. J. Robinson
6. J. Morgan
7. R. Sandberg
8. F. Frisch
9. B. DeMoss
10. R. Carew

Bill, I thought you had moved Morgan up because of the efforts of the Morganites? Don't tell me you slid him back down. You should take the advice of your friend Randy.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Bill, I thought you had moved Morgan up because of the efforts of the Morganites? Don't tell me you slid him back down. You should take the advice of your friend Randy.

On what Morgan? I've got him 9th overall and the top second baseman, but I know better than to try and convince Bill of that

[ElHalo]

Not sure how I missed this thread.

My answers to the questions:

I rank Traynor as my number 2 3Bman.
I rank Wagner as my number 6 position player.
I rank Mathewson as my number 2 pitcher.
I rank Morgan as my number 6 2Bman (recent development).
I rank Reggie somewhere in the 90's as a position player.
Rose does not crack my top 100.
Jackson... well, you know.
I rank Gibson as my number 1 catcher.
I rank Charleston somewhere in the 20's as a position player.
I don't know anything at all about Pop Lloyd.