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  • #46
    Originally posted by 538280
    Bill, I thought you had moved Morgan up because of the efforts of the Morganites? Don't tell me you slid him back down. You should take the advice of your friend Randy.
    I DID move him up! From around 9th to 6th among 2Bmen. And entirely due to the excellent research of the Morganites.

    You have Joe ranked 12th, Bill James has him 14th, and I have him 42nd.

    Randy!!!! Joe is Top 10 EVER?! All-Time!!??

    How can such things be?? You'd put him above Hornsby, Schmidt, Lajoie, Collins, and such??? Say it ain't so, Randy!

    Bill the shocked
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-21-2006, 08:17 PM.

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    • #47
      I have long ranked Morgan as my number 5 2Bman (behind Hornsby, Lajoie, Collins, and Gehringer, in that order).

      I have a list of players that I don't rank at any particular position. Guys like Pete Rose, Robin Yount, or King Kelly, who did their work all over the place, tend to just fall between the cracks for me, and not get ranked anywhere. I've recently moved a guy out of that positional pergatory and into my 2B rankings, and thus Morgan has had to step down a notch to make room for Rod Carew.
      "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

      Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

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      • #48
        Originally posted by [email protected]
        I DID move him up! From around 9th to 6th among 2Bmen. And entirely due to the excellent research of the Morganites.

        Randy!!!! Joe is Top 10 EVER?! All-Time!!??

        How can such things be?? You'd put him above Gehrig, Hornsby, Speaker, and such??? Say it ain't so, Randy!

        Bill the shocked
        Ahead of Gehrig and Speaker? Are you NUTS !!

        I'm working on some tweaks, but I can't imagine moving him below 12-15. He was a stud. What have you seen that caused you to rate him so low?

        As of my last update:

        1. Ruth
        2. Cobb
        3. Mays
        4. Wagner
        5. Speaker
        6. Gehrig
        7. Musial
        8. Aaron
        9. Morgan
        10. Williams
        11. Hornsby
        12. DiMaggio
        13. Mantle
        14. F. Robinson
        15. Schmidt


        I suspect Mantle may be seeing a higher slot soon, and I'm always up for moving Morgan down, especially since Chris is always tearin' Babe down, lol jk buddy I do need to re-evaluate though, especially with Collins I think I might have him too low at 17 and the #4 second baseman behind Morgan, Hornsby, and Lajoie.
        Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 03-21-2006, 08:18 PM.

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        • #49
          Morgan's 2 most fervent, rabid boosters here are Chris and Mark. And they both have Schmidt way ahead of Joe. I think they both have Joe at 14th.

          Joe WAS an excellent player and an asset to his teams, but I've always thought Johnny Bench was an even more valuable asset.

          Bill
          Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-21-2006, 08:31 PM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by [email protected]
            Morgan's 2 most fervent, rapid boosters here are Chris and Mark. And they both have Schmidt way ahead of Joe. I think they both have Joe at 14th.

            Joe WAS an excellent player and an asset to his teams, but I've always thought Johnny Bench was an even more valuable asset.

            Bill
            That's a good point. And they certainly know more about him than I do.

            Maybe I got sucked into the "well I need to have my top second baseman this high" type of thing. Bench was extremely valuable. I view this as a players greatness though, not about their value. Are your lists based on value?

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            • #51
              Originally posted by [email protected]
              Mark,

              Who said you are alone in your Morgan surprise? Here's my 2B Top 10.

              1. E. Collins
              2. R. Hornsby
              3. N. Lajoie
              4. C. Gehringer
              5. J. Robinson
              6. J. Morgan
              Nice. Morgan is basically Jackie for TWICE the career length and you peg him lower
              Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
              Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                That's a good point. And they certainly know more about him than I do.

                Maybe I got sucked into the "well I need to have my top second baseman this high" type of thing. Bench was extremely valuable. I view this as a players greatness though, not about their value. Are your lists based on value?
                To tell the truth, I have no idea what the hell my lists are based on. Probably my gut more than any intellectual analysis. I'm a very strange guy!

                Bill

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                  Nice. Morgan is basically Jackie for TWICE the career length and you peg him lower
                  Jackie had mitigating circumstances. Intangibles. I have my reasons. Had stress levels we can't measure or credit him properly for.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by [email protected]
                    To tell the truth, I have no idea what the hell my lists are based on. Probably my gut more than any intellectual analysis. I'm a very strange guy!

                    Bill
                    Yeah, I hear ya Bill. After I get to Gehrig, things can get a little blurry depending on whatever. No science to it; but don't tell that to certain people..sshhhhh
                    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-21-2006, 08:45 PM.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                      Yeah, I hear ya Bill. After I get to Gehrig, things can get a little blurry depending on whatever. No science to it; but don't tell that to certain people..sshhhhh
                      Totally understood. My own list is extremely fluid after my Top 10. Not really prepared to defend my sequence of order after my Top 10 or so, and I rearrange often, based on arguments I hear here.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                        Nice. Morgan is basically Jackie for TWICE the career length and you peg him lower
                        As far as I am concerned, the two had virtually identical careers in terms of length. While in the Negro Leagues, it is not like Jackie was a car salesman- he was still playing baseball. And if EVER someone deserved points beyond what is visible on the stat sheet, it is Jackie, IMO.

                        My top 2Bman:

                        1) Rogers Hornsby
                        2) Eddie Collins
                        3) Napoleon Lajoie
                        4) Jackie Robinson
                        5) Joe Morgan
                        6) Charlie Gehringer

                        Mark

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                          Nice. Morgan is basically Jackie for TWICE the career length and you peg him lower
                          I don't know, maybe I'm wrong on this, but I seem to remember hitting a full 40 points higher for his career than Morgan did. In other words, just a tad more than the difference between Tony Gwynn and Shannon Stewart. Could be wrong.
                          "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                          Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

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                          • #58
                            He is probably referring to their identical OPS+, although we all know that Joe's is so high from walks, while Jackie's is so high from hitting the ball.

                            Mark

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                            • #59
                              In our last 2B poll/survey, here were the results.
                              -------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              538280 , November 7, 2005, 04:04 AM

                              The results are now in. In a very close poll, Rogers Hornsby retains his spot as the BBF #1 second basemen. He received a very close push from Eddie Collins and Joe Morgan. Here are the final results out of the 17 ballots submitted (first place votes in parenthesis):

                              Rogers Hornsby-165 (8)
                              Eddie Collins-161 (4)
                              Joe Morgan-146 (4)
                              Nap Lajoie-122
                              Charlie Gehringer-92 (1)
                              Jackie Robinson-89
                              Craig Biggio-54
                              Roberto Alomar-43
                              Rod Carew-33
                              Ryne Sandberg-31
                              Frankie Frisch-22

                              No one else received more than 20 points.
                              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              And of course, there was our first poll/survey; conducted by leecemark.

                              leecemark, November 5, 2004, 10:37 PM

                              Top 10 Secondbase vote totals

                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              --The final tally for the secondbase man voting:
                              1. Rogers Hornsby 140
                              2. Eddie Collins 133
                              3. Joe Morgan 110
                              4. Nap Lajoie 107
                              5. Charlie Gehringer 73
                              6. Jackie Robinson 70
                              7. Frankie Frisch 39
                              8. Ryne Sandberg 37
                              9. Roberto Alomar 25
                              10. Craig Biggio 23
                              Others receiving more than one vote; Joe Gordon, Bobby Grich and Rod Carew.i
                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              Morgan/Gehringer; Who would you rate higher?

                              Little Joe got 13 votes = 38.24%
                              538280, abacab, AG2004, Brock20, Honus Wagner Rules, leecemark, Naliamegod, SABR Matt, therealnod, TheSlaff, torez77, whatswailing, wrgptfan [B][COLOR="Red"]


                              The Mechanical Man got 21 votes = 61.76%

                              Barnstormer, blackout805, CoasttoCoast, csh19792001, Dudeman, efin98, ElHalo, hbinways, HDH, julusnc, MasonDixon, Myankee4life, NationalPastime1980, NeverJustAGame, pjwvolk, RogersMaris, The Splendid Splinter, [email protected], Wolverineman, Yankee Legend, yest [B][COLOR="red"]
                              Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-21-2006, 10:55 PM.

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                              • #60
                                Bill,

                                Chris (csh) sent me a few links so I could read through some of the past second baseman debates from here. Admittedly, that's one of my weaker positions knowledge wise, with the exception of Hornsby, so I'll read through that and make adjustments if I see fit. Thanks.
                                Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-21-2006, 10:48 PM.

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