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  • Honus Wagner Rules
    replied
    Originally posted by White Knight View Post
    Quite a few illiterate people can sign their own name. It's really only one pattern, so I would assume they have someone sign their name and then they memorize it.
    I've also read that Jackson's wife would sometimes sign Joe's name on documents. Any truth to this? The baseball for auction was from 1919 so I was wondering if Jackson had learned to sign his name by then? Didn't he sign a confession with an 'X'?

    http://www.psacard.com/autographfact...21/joe-jackson

    Leave a comment:


  • Herr28
    replied
    Yeah, my 3-year-old son can't read more than a few words, but he can spell and write his first and last name(s).

    Leave a comment:


  • White Knight
    replied
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    There is a signed baseball signed by some of the 1919 White Sox players, including Joe Jackson, up for auction. I thought Jackson was illiterate?

    http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story...ilia-auctioned
    Quite a few illiterate people can sign their own name. It's really only one pattern, so I would assume they have someone sign their name and then they memorize it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Honus Wagner Rules
    replied
    There is a signed baseball signed by some of the 1919 White Sox players, including Joe Jackson, up for auction. I thought Jackson was illiterate?

    http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story...ilia-auctioned

    Leave a comment:


  • Sultan_1895-1948
    replied
    From The Babe In Red Stockings - 1915

    "The following day, Washington was in town for a grueling three doubleheaders in three days. The only playing time Ruth saw was in the second game of the first day, but he would certainly do his part against the Senators. Babe extended his personal winning streak to six games, pitching a five-hit, 6-0 shutout and scoring two of the runs himself. With his lone hit in his two official at-bats he reached another milestone - his first major league triple. Ruth also made a great defensive play in the third inning on a rain soaked field when speedy Clyde Milan hit a hard grounder back to the box. Babe stabbed it, and after slipping in the mud, threw out Eddie Foster at the plate. Boston went on to sweep all three doubleheaders, and thus found themselves on July 7 just two percentage points behind first-place Chicago.

    On that same day, an incident occurred in Cleveland involving "Shoeless" Joe Jackson that bears re-telling. Ruth was said to have modeled his swing after Jackson's, and given the Babe's reputation as a careless, even reckless driver, one might wonder if his vehicular prowess was inspired by Jackson as well.

    While driving along with his wife, Joe thought something was wrong with the car's engine. He then allowed Mrs. Jackson to take over the driving while he climbed out on the running board, and with the car still in motion he lifted the hood to investigate. At this time a truck belonging to the Glenville Lumber Company came along from the other direction, knocking him off. He was taken to a local hospital and treated for his injuries, and would miss three weeks worth of action. The Glenville Lumber Company filed suit in Common Pleas Court in Cleveland weeks later to recover $27.15 in damages.
    "
    Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 12-26-2013, 06:59 PM.

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  • bluesky5
    replied
    Joe's great, great, great nephew was drafted with the 160th pick by the Texas Rangers. He is also named Joe Jackson and is from Greenville, SC just like Joe.

    http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/fan...at-the-citadel

    Leave a comment:


  • Dude Paskert
    replied
    Originally posted by CTaka View Post
    If Jackson was claiming that is an all-time record, it wouldn't have even been a record at that time. Honus Wagner threw for a then record 403 feet in the field day competition in 1898, a record that stood until 1908.

    Nevertheless, this would imply that Jackson did have a strong throwing arm. While much of the discussion about Shoeless (rightly) focuses on his hitting, I am curious about his "other tools". What do we know about his baserunning speed/skill and fielding ability?
    Glen Gorbous' record throw was about 446 feet, and there is a story about Steve Dalkowski (who knows if you can believe ANYTHING said about him) that he threw a ball from CF fence 440 feet from home and the ball went over the stands behind the plate. I guess there are supposed to be some parks around the country where holes Dalko made in welded wire fending with wild pitches are still preserved, but I can't say that I've seen any real photos.
    But, Jackson was reputed to have a great arm in his day, with good accuracy. He played against adults when he was a youngster and they learned to not try to take the extra base against the kid. Can't remember ever seeing that he had really good speed, though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sultan_1895-1948
    replied
    Originally posted by CTaka View Post
    While much of the discussion about Shoeless (rightly) focuses on his hitting, I am curious about his "other tools". What do we know about his baserunning speed/skill and fielding ability?
    Here's a short exchange we had in the PCA Request line thread, over in the stats forum

    Originally posted by SABR Matt View Post
    Was that you who promoted this thread again?

    Thanks...PCA might not be truly revolutionary, and of course, it has its' flaws, but I am still proud of the work and believe it is fundamentally more well rounded and the conclusions more logical most of the time than WS which is what I was competing with primarily when I did this work...LOL Granted my opinion of the system is just my opinion, so YMMV

    And yes...Collins was the more talented fielder between he and Brooksie IMHO. Robinson was mechanically astoundingly consistent...his performance year in and year out was just plain bankable.

    The three careers you requested...first the Defensive data:
    Code:
    Stan Musial
    RF
    Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
    1941	9	0.03	0.227
    1943	120	4.21	0.365
    1944	117	3.42	0.340
    1948	66	1.23	0.294
    1949	103	2.36	0.312
    1950	9	0.10	0.262
    1952	10	0.11	0.261
    1953	23	0.31	0.270
    1954	144	-0.19	0.206
    1955	22	0.23	0.258
    1956	45	0.44	0.254
    1960	5	0.02	0.227
    1962	20	0.06	0.225
    LF
    Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
    1941	2	0.04	0.299
    1942	111	3.26	0.358
    1943	34	0.58	0.295
    1946	48	0.79	0.292
    1948	36	0.19	0.236
    1949	2	0.05	0.335
    1950	43	0.27	0.240
    1951	82	1.23	0.285
    1952	24	0.12	0.233
    1953	139	0.18	0.215
    1954	7	0.03	0.231
    1955	14	0.07	0.234
    1956	2	0.03	0.293
    1960	49	0.22	0.231
    1961	77	2.26	0.358
    1962	78	2.47	0.371
    1963	61	1.05	0.297
    1B
    Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
    1946	116	0.63	0.243
    1947	147	2.38	0.310
    1948	1	-0.01	0.157
    1949	1	0.00	0.205
    1950	66	1.21	0.324
    1951	60	0.98	0.311
    1952	21	0.10	0.239
    1954	4	0.00	0.201
    1955	103	1.72	0.314
    1956	94	1.32	0.296
    1957	122	0.73	0.246
    1958	117	1.82	0.306
    1959	75	0.60	0.259
    1960	24	0.20	0.261
    
    CAREER PCA-BA: .290 in RF, .289 in LF, and .286 at first base - .288 total
    
    Rickey Henderson
    CF
    Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
    1979	26	0.26	0.245
    1982	8	0.27	0.331
    1983	8	0.25	0.322
    1984	4	0.05	0.257
    1985	135	5.18	0.349
    1986	138	4.83	0.337
    1987	39	0.83	0.286
    1988	2	0.03	0.268
    1994	9	0.11	0.254
    1996	5	0.08	0.264
    1997	16	0.19	0.251
    1997	2	0.06	0.311
    1998	13	0.13	0.245
    2002	2	0.03	0.269
    LF
    Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
    1979	63	0.54	0.252
    1980	152	5.18	0.383
    1981	107	3.45	0.373
    1982	137	2.01	0.283
    1983	128	1.70	0.276
    1984	131	0.83	0.241
    1985	7	0.19	0.348
    1986	14	0.16	0.265
    1987	37	0.62	0.294
    1988	125	0.84	0.243
    1989	65	0.42	0.241
    1989	77	2.63	0.383
    1990	116	2.56	0.321
    1991	105	2.03	0.307
    1992	97	2.29	0.329
    1993	73	1.40	0.306
    1993	38	0.58	0.286
    1994	60	1.17	0.308
    1995	72	0.74	0.261
    1996	100	1.97	0.309
    1997	57	0.35	0.240
    1997	9	0.14	0.285
    1998	123	1.44	0.268
    1999	99	0.22	0.220
    2000	83	0.85	0.261
    2000	20	0.16	0.250
    2001	89	0.76	0.252
    2002	46	0.35	0.247
    2003	15	0.07	0.231
    
    CAREER PCA-BA: .319 in CF, .289 in LF, .296 overall
    
    Joe Jackson
    RF
    Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
    1910	7	0.06	0.247
    1911	105	2.63	0.321
    1912	123	4.25	0.363
    1913	151	2.59	0.287
    1914	85	1.64	0.296
    1915	37	0.42	0.261
    1916	24	0.71	0.341
    1917	12	0.30	0.320
    1918	3	0.03	0.251
    1919	5	0.14	0.334
    LF
    Yr	EqG	Wins	PCA-BA
    1909	5	0.08	0.288
    1915	4	0.04	0.266
    1915	18	0.30	0.294
    1916	133	0.57	0.230
    1917	137	1.73	0.273
    1918	12	0.18	0.286
    1919	132	-0.39	0.193
    1920	149	1.05	0.244
    
    CAREER PCA-BA: .313 in RF, .239 in LF, .275 overall
    A few comments. Stan Musial is an excellent example of a player who was managed almost perfectly. When there was a sense that he was beginning to decline as a RFer...they slid him to left where he flourished for a few more years...when he started declining there they moved him to first base where he once again flourished...in so doing they turned a player who today would have spent too long in LF and been rated as a weaker fielder overall...kinda like what happened to Bernie Williams...into a player that is rememb ered as capable of handling all of the corner positions well.

    Perhaps someone who is an expert on Joe Jackson can explain to me why a guy who was an OUTSTANDING defensive right fielder would slide over to left...and then proceed to completely and utterly SUCK in a less demanding position for the remainder of his career...man...a full season in 1919 and he wound up submarginal defensively...despite his hitting just PEAKING.

    Henderson rates as the best full time left fielder (defensively) of all time for a good reason. When he played CF he showed he could hack it there which means he could certainly hack it in left.

    A note...Stan Musial raates as overall a better fielder than Henderson as you'll see...that is a product of brilliant managing and the kinds of funny things that can happen when you have his kind of multi-position career more than his raw ability out-shining Rickey's. The three players' Defensive GI lines:
    Code:
    First	Last    	HOF	Rank	PsEqG	Career	Rate	Mastery	TOTAL	Ps
    Stan	Musial  	Y	1	951	40.11	31.41	62.06	133.58	LF
    Rickey	Henderson	A	2	2245	47.98	39.35	40.19	127.52	LF
    Joe	Jackson 	N	45	590	18.00	27.17	22.39	67.56	LF
    Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
    I'm no expert on Jackson, but when he was traded to the Sox from Cleveland, Shano Collins was the established right fielder. Jackson started his first two games with the Sox (doubleheader) in left and never went back to right; even after Collins was done, Leibold took over in right. Who knows what the deal is there. Its worth noting Matt, only because I now know your system doesn't factor it in...that Comiskey was over 360 feet to both right and left down the lines. However when Jackson was playing right field in Cleveland's League park, right field was only 290 while left was a whopping 385.
    Originally posted by leecemark View Post
    --Perhaps the tiny RF in Cleveland was the maximum amount of territory Jackson could successfully cover. Shoeless Joe had somewhat of a Manny Ramierez reputation (on a smaller scale) in the field. He had the ability to be good out there, but didn't always pay attention or hustle.
    Originally posted by SABR Matt View Post
    Ah...see thanks Sultan/Mark...that's the kind of insight I was looking for...didn't check the dimensions of Cleveland's RF vs Chicago's LF...that does explain it.
    Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
    Here's another possibility. In his Grand Jury testimony, when he was asked if he was satisfied with his salary, he replied to this effect.

    "When that's all you could get from them. I was lucky to get that contract, because I had been injured."

    I have looked constantly on Proquest to find any mention of an injury, which prompted Cleveland to deal him to Comiskey, but have not found anything so far.

    So, it's possible that he sustained an injury which hampered his running defensively.

    Bill
    Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 03-24-2013, 05:00 PM.

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  • Sultan_1895-1948
    replied
    Originally posted by Blackout View Post
    yes it says in "Ty and the Babe" that Joe Jackson threw a ball 390 feet

    which is longer than a football field!
    We would play long toss on the football field in high school and throw endzone to endzone on the fly. Being at the very back edge of the endzone would be pretty impressive though, 360 feet. So Jackson basically threw from the back edge of an endzone to the back edge of two endzones at the other end.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTaka
    replied
    Originally posted by Blackout View Post
    yes it says in "Ty and the Babe" that Joe Jackson threw a ball 390 feet

    which is longer than a football field!
    If Jackson was claiming that is an all-time record, it wouldn't have even been a record at that time. Honus Wagner threw for a then record 403 feet in the field day competition in 1898, a record that stood until 1908.

    Nevertheless, this would imply that Jackson did have a strong throwing arm. While much of the discussion about Shoeless (rightly) focuses on his hitting, I am curious about his "other tools". What do we know about his baserunning speed/skill and fielding ability?

    Leave a comment:


  • Blackout
    replied
    Originally posted by Corgidog1 View Post
    In looking at Joe jackson's stats I noticed that in 1917 his avg. dropped to 301 despite playing in 146 games. Any ideas what on what happene?. I also noted that in a 1949 interview with Sports Magazine in reflecting upon his career one of the achievments Joe noted was that he held the all time throwing record for distance. Anyone know anything about this?
    yes it says in "Ty and the Babe" that Joe Jackson threw a ball 390 feet

    which is longer than a football field!

    Leave a comment:


  • Blackout
    replied
    joe jackson > mike trout

    Leave a comment:


  • Corgidog1
    replied
    In looking at Joe jackson's stats I noticed that in 1917 his avg. dropped to 301 despite playing in 146 games. Any ideas what on what happene?. I also noted that in a 1949 interview with Sports Magazine in reflecting upon his career one of the achievments Joe noted was that he held the all time throwing record for distance. Anyone know anything about this?

    Leave a comment:


  • Sultan_1895-1948
    replied
    http://www.fcassociates.com/ntjackson.htm

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    Jackson may have a case for best first and last season in a single career.

    Leave a comment:

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