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Rube Waddell - most underrated pitcher ever?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by leecemark
    --Alas, any chance of Coopertown being reserved for only th etrue elite is long since lost. At this point, it is only unfair to modern player to exclude them when they produce a career similar to mid-tier HoFer. Holding more recent players to a higher standard than many of the old timers already in just demeans the hall. Which, is not to say being better than the worst guys should get you in, but you don't have to be Walter Johsnon or Lefty Grove either.
    I am actually in total agreement that the HOF should be reserved for the greatest of the great. Unfortunately, there have been many questionable additions, which is why I argue in favor of other questionable additions (like Joss perhaps), because it's only fair to include them if certain others have been included.

    I haven't participated in the BBF HOF elections, but maybe I'll give them a look-see. Hopefully, they are less controversial.
    Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by leecemark
      --Alas, any chance of Coopertown being reserved for only th etrue elite is long since lost. At this point, it is only unfair to modern player to exclude them when they produce a career similar to mid-tier HoFer. Holding more recent players to a higher standard than many of the old timers already in just demeans the hall. Which, is not to say being better than the worst guys should get you in, but you don't have to be Walter Johsnon or Lefty Grove either.
      I agree on the comments on this thread. The HOF has players who don't belong. We're all aware of the Frisch Vets Comm voting in the Fordham Flash's buddies, but starting with the very first elections, who was the first player elected that should not be in? What is the 'starting point' of when it made it's first mistake? This could be worthy of its own thread.

      My vote goes to Candy Cummings by the Vets Comm in 1939.
      My vote goes to Herb Pennock by the Baseball Writers in 1948.

      Yankees Fan Since 1957

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      • #48
        --I'm not neccessarily saying they don't belong, as they probably do in the Hall that has come to be, but the writer demonstrated as early as 1939 that they weren't going to limit Cooperstown to only the best of the best when they elected Sisler and Keeler.

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        • #49
          I do, however, agree with Mark when he says it is the Hall of FAME, and hence very famous and influential players, managers, executives, etc. should get in under that criteria. Only makes sense. Players like Dean and Hunter would fit that bill. Joss would not.

          But if players like Ross Youngs, Rabbit Maranville (maybe he got in cuz of his name??), Jesse Haines, Waite Hoyt and Herb Pennock are gonna get in, Joss undoubtedly deserves to be also.
          Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

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          • #50
            --Maranville was actually very famous and considered a superstar when active (defense was much more appreciated in those days). I agree Joss belongs in your latter group though - and none of them belong in Cooperstown.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by bkmckenna
              wow - the history of the game and the value of individuals boiled down to a few numbers - my least favorite aspect of bbf
              Yep. A clue as to why I seldom visit or post here anymore.
              A swing--and a smash--and a gray streak partaking/Of ghostly manoeuvres that follow the whack;/The old earth rebounds with a quiver and quaking/And high flies the dust as he thuds on the track;/The atmosphere reels--and it isn't the comet--/There follows the blur of a phantom at play;/Then out from the reel comes the glitter of steel--/And damned be the fellow that gets in the way.                 A swing and a smash--and the far echoes quiver--/A ripping and rearing and volcanic roar;/And off streaks the Ghost with a shake and a shiver,/To hurdle red hell on the way to a score;/A cross between tidal wave, cyclone and earthquake--/Fire, wind and water all out on a lark;/Then out from the reel comes the glitter of steel,/Plus ten tons of dynamite hitched to a spark.

              --Cobb, Grantland Rice

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              • #52
                Originally posted by torez77
                Herb Pennock are gonna get in, Joss undoubtedly deserves to be also.
                Certainly Pennock is not an upper tier HOFer. His career ERA+ of 106 isn't too impressive, and he didn't rack up much ink. He hung around a little too long, and was a non-strikeout pitcher who played in the heart of the 20's. He started out as mostly a reliever, and continued to appear in relief later in his career (197 relief appearances, 32 career saves). McCarthy once said, "" I am going to pitch Pennock in spots this season -- the tough ones."

                I think he's a classic example of numbers not showing the true greatness of a player (In '25 he went 16-17, but had an ERA+ of 144). Pennock was a smooth lefty who held runners as well as anyone, he was a superb fielder, and he was money when it mattered most (In the 1927 World Series, he had a perfect game going with one out in the eighth inning, and ended up his post season career at 5-0 with an ERA below 2)

                Completed 247 of 420 games started, and was regarded by many as one of top few lefties in the league. Once again, I agree he is not a top tier HOFer, but certainly there have been worse inductees throughout history.

                A few things about Herb...

                In 1915, he nearly became the first pitcher in history to throw a no hitter on opening day. Up 2-0, he had two outs in the ninth inning, when he gave up a single. Almost doesn't count though. Feller became the first to do it in 1940.

                In '28 he won a 14 inning game against the White Sox, and came out of it with a sore arm. He was pretty much done for the rest of the season, but at one point resorted to letting bees sting his arm cause he thought it would help it.

                In game three of the '27 Series, he retired 22 straight Pirate hitters in a complete game 3 hitter victory. This with a hurt leg from being drilled with a ball during BP in Pittsburgh.

                Huggins called Pennock the greatest lefthander in history, and Babe would always mention Pennock on his all star teams, but eventually he conceded that Lefty Grove was the best lefty he had ever seen. He always maintained though, that Pennock was the smartest. He would say that Pennock was a lefty version of Mathewson. Despite Pennock having a completely opposite personality, Babe and him got along very well. In fact, after Huston convinced Babe to end his infamous barnstorming trip, Babe went off hunting with Pennock before going to see Landis.

                After Babe's $70,000 salary in '27, Pennock was next on the list with $17,500.

                -In '23,'24,'26,'27,'28, Pennock was 99-40 with a 130 ERA+ and 101 CG in 144 GS
                In his last 5 years, Koufax was 111-34 with an outlandish ERA+ and 100 CG in 176 GS
                Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 03-01-2006, 04:48 AM.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by HitchedtoaSpark
                  Yep. A clue as to why I seldom visit or post here anymore.
                  Hold on. Some members still try to hold the line and post more traditionally about people, the old-fashioned way. Please don't throw out the baby with the bathwater! We're still here, still fighting hard.

                  Bill Burgess

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by HitchedtoaSpark
                    Yep. A clue as to why I seldom visit or post here anymore.
                    Yep. And the reason why myself and many others with whom I've spoken on PM are getting disgusted with this site.

                    The stat mongers know who they are.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by csh19792001
                      The stat mongers know who they are.
                      You mean the ones that use CS % as measure of a players speed/baserunning ability?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by csh19792001
                        Yep. And the reason why myself and many others with whom I've spoken on PM are getting disgusted with this site.

                        The stat mongers know who they are.
                        There is room enough for all of us here. We do have an ignore list, if it must come to that.

                        Bill

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          It bugs me a little when threads go completely off topic and veer off in many directions. I've contributed to that, so I plead guilty.

                          Bill, or anybody else - would you like to post more articles that laud Rube? I already posted Walter Johnson's take on him.
                          Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            --You can start a thread, but they have a life of their own. Many of the best discussions are side tracks from the original topic.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by torez77
                              It bugs me a little when threads go completely off topic and veer off in many directions..
                              i know what you are saying but that is what makes bbf so interesting - great info is provided in unlikely places - you can't have an infinite # of topics so it is good when are minds are sparked to explore different areas

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by torez77
                                It bugs me a little when threads go completely off topic and veer off in many directions. I've contributed to that, so I plead guilty.

                                Bill, or anybody else - would you like to post more articles that laud Rube? I already posted Walter Johnson's take on him.
                                This has only happened to me about a million times. I used to whine about it, but what can anyone do? People throw in what they feel they need to, and it goes from there. But Mark is quite right. Sometimes, great stuff comes about spontaneously.

                                Re: Rube.

                                Have you seen my Historical Articles? Some nice stuff in there about Rube. Also, if anyone does a search about their favorite stuff, you would be surprised how much there is on old threads. Rube no doubt has some old threads devoted solely to him. I don't have any old articles on him, off hand, except what I posted in Historical Articles. Check it out. You might like some of it.

                                Bill

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