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  • Bill Dickey

    Do you think Bill Dickey is underrated?
    47
    I still consider Bill Dickey a Top 10 All-Time Catcher.
    14.89%
    7
    I no longer consider Bill Dickey a Top 10 All-Time Catcher.
    4.26%
    2
    I rank Bill higher than Mickey Cochrane.
    4.26%
    2
    I rank Mickey Cochane higher than Bill.
    8.51%
    4
    I rank Bill higher than Gabby Hartnett.
    10.64%
    5
    I rank Hartnett higher than Bill.
    8.51%
    4
    I rank Bill above Yogi Berra.
    0.00%
    0
    I rank Yogi above Bill Dickey.
    14.89%
    7
    I rank Bill above Roy Campanella.
    4.26%
    2
    I rank Roy above Bill Dickey.
    10.64%
    5
    I think that today, Bill Dickey is historically under-rated.
    14.89%
    7
    I think that today, Bill Dickey is historically over-rated.
    4.26%
    2
    I think that today, Bill Dickey is rated about right.
    0.00%
    0
    "He is the greatest natural hitter I ever saw." -Ty Cobb

    "I copied Jackson's style because I thought he was the greatest hitter I had ever seen, the greatest natural hitter I ever saw. He's the guy who made me a hitter." -Babe Ruth

    "Everything he hit was really blessed. He could break bones with his shots. Blindfold me and I could still tell you when Joe hit the ball. It had a special crack." -Ernie Shore

  • #2
    Most people have him somewhere between 6-12 all-time as a catcher. That range is acceptable. Too far outside of that range requires some explanation.
    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

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    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
    The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

    Comment


    • #3
      I have him presently ranked #8 among catchers. He was one beautiful catcher, the backbone of the 30's Yankees, with Lou Gehrig, of course.

      A great catcher like him (or Cochrane, or Hartnett) will go a long way to stabilize one's pitching staff.

      No, I don't think he's over-rated. He's probably under-rated, if anything. He must definitely go Top 10. One must not rank Gary Carter or Carlton Fisk ahead of Iron Bill. At 6'2, Bill was somewhat tall.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Bill's Relative Stats:

      -------Relative BA---Rel.Onb---Rel.Slg.---OPS+------Plate Appearances

      -----------1.11---------1.08------1.18------127-----------7,060

      Here are the results of our 1st. Catcher's poll, conducted by leecemark,
      October 23, 2004, 08:28 AM

      --Voting is closed and here are the top 10 (first place votes in paras). Josh Gibson got the most first place votes, but was left off many ballots and finished 4th. He was the only catcher not on my top 10 list to make it and I surely can't argue that he wasn't top 10 even though I don't know where to rank him myself. Buck Ewing was the only player to get a first place vote and not make the top 10.

      1. Johnny Bench 158 (5)
      2. Yogi Berra 151 (3)
      3. Mickey Cochrane 135 (1)
      4. Josh Gibson 93 (7)
      5. Roy Campanella 73
      6. Gabby Hartnett 71
      7. Bill Dickey 67
      8. Ivan Rodriguez 63
      9. Mike Piazza 56
      10. Carlton Fisk 35
      11. Gary Carter 22
      12. Buck Ewing 18(1)
      13. Biz Mackey 17

      Honorable Mention: Nine other catchers received votes but didn't crack double figures in points.
      -------------------------------------------------
      Here are the results of our 2nd. poll, conducted by 538280, December 27, 2005, 10:55 AM
      All right, guys, I've compiled the results. Here are the top 12 point-getters, with first place votes in parenthesis.

      1. Johnny Bench-183 (10)
      2. Yogi Berra-131
      3. Josh Gibson-106 (5)
      4. Mike Piazza-87
      5. Mickey Cochrane-84
      6. Roy Campanella-67
      7. Ivan Rodriguez-63
      8. Bill Dickey-50
      9. Gary Carter-35
      10. Carlton Fisk-31
      11. Buck Ewing-30 (1)
      12. Gabby Hartnett-28

      No one else received more than 20 points.

      So, Johnny Bench has been selected as BBF's all time best catcher. I'll now start the first base poll.
      ----------------------------------------------------------
      Here are the results of our 3rd. poll, conducted by myself, June 6, 2007, 05:46 PM

      Yanks0714 listed Gibson between Berra (who was awarded position number 2) and Cochrane (who was awarded number 3). When compiling the totals, I considered Gibson third on his ballot, and moved everyone below him down one spot.

      There were 15 ballots, and the following are the point totals.

      1) Johnny Bench 141 (8)
      2) Yogi Berra 124 (2)
      3) Mickey Cochrane 93 (1)
      4) Josh Gibson 86 (3)
      5) Mike Piazza 84
      6) Gary Carter 50
      6) Ivan Rodriguez 50
      8) Carlton Fisk 43
      9) Bill Dickey 41
      10) Ray Campanella 31

      11) Buck Ewing 26 (1)
      12) Gabby Hartnett 24
      13) Biz Mackey 13
      14) Lance Parrish 5
      14) Louis Santop 5
      14) Ted Simmons 5
      17) Katsuya Nomura 2
      18) Elston Howard 1
      18) Joe Torre 1
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Here are the results of our 4th poll, conducted by leecemark, March 2, 2008.
      --Thank you to the 12 members who shared their opinions here. Johnny Bench received 9 of 12 first place votes, Yogi Berra 2 and Buck Ewing 1. Vote totals as follows; Negro Leaguers were not allowed.

      1) Johnny Bench 233
      2) Yogi Berra 215
      3) Mike Piazza 211
      4) Mickey Cochrane 192
      5t) Gary Carter 159
      5t) Roy Campanella 159
      7) Carlton Fisk 158
      8) Bill Dickey 152
      9) Ivan Rodriguez 147
      10) Gabby Hartnett 141

      11) Buck Ewing 128
      12) Ted Simmons 93
      13) Joe Torre 68
      14) Bill Freehan 55
      15) Charlie Bennett 45
      16) Thurman Munson 39
      17) Ernie Lombardi 38
      18) Roger Bresnanhan 37
      19) King Kelly 29
      20) Lance Parrish 27
      21) Elston Howard 6/23
      22) Deacon White 4/15
      23) Jorge Posada 3/18
      24) Ray Schalk 3/17
      25) Gene Tenace 3/14
      26) Wally Schang 3/12
      27) Johnny Kling 3/8
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      AstrosFan has contributed this wonderful hitting chart of relative stats for catchers. (Non-Park-Adjusted)
      Code:
             FN               PA	AB	AVG+	OBP+	SLG+	ISO+	OPS+
      King	Kelly		6455	5894	119	116.5	125.4	143.4	141.9
      Mike	Piazza		7416	6602	114.7	111.3	128.9	153.1	140.2
      Mickey	Cochrane	6055	5169	110.1	116.3	114.3	123.7	130.6
      Buck	Ewing		5764	5363	111.7	106.3	123.6	157	129.9
      Roy	Campanella	4786	4205	102.9	106	121.3	155.8	127.3
      Johnny	Bench		8658	7658	101.8	103.6	123.4	169.5	127
      Gabby	Hartnett        7170	6432	103.6	106.6	120.2	160.2	126.8
      Bill	Dickey		7009	6300	110.5	107.6	118.2	135.3	125.8
      Ernie	Lombardi        6331	5855	111.3	105.7	118.5	135.8	124.2
      Roger	Bresnahan	5262	4481	104.6	116.7	107.2	115.3	123.9
      Yogi	Berra		8355	7555	107.6	102	121.7	150	123.7
      Carlton	Fisk		9827	8756	103	103.9	116.6	143.6	120.5
      Charlie	Bennett		4310	3821	 99.5	109	111.2	144.4	120.2
      Gary	Carter		8986	7971	 99.9	101.5	113	140.5	114.5
      Ivan	Rodriguez  	8298	7745	112.7	101	113.3	114.4	114.3
      Thurman	Munson		5882	5344	112.6	105.9	107	 95.2	112.9
      Johnny	Bassler		2766	2319	105.7	116.8	 91.2	 53.1	108
      Johnny	Kling		4534	4241	102.3	 96.4	102.4	102.5	 98.8
      Jimmy	Archer		2787	2644	 95.7	 88.7	 96.9	100.5	 85.6
      Ray	Schalk		6003	5306	 90.4	 97.3	 82.5	 60.7	 79.8
      Marty	Bergen		1340	1278	 92.1	 85.2	 91.8	 90.9	 77
      ----------Bill Dickey, Yankees' C, 1929-43------------------All 7 shots of Bill--------------------------BB Reference


      ----------------------------------------------1940------------------------------------------------------September 1, 1936

      --------------------------------------1929-------------------------------------------------------------September 10, 1941


      October 2, 1938, preparing for the World Series.

      Last edited by Bill Burgess; 10-20-2011, 09:30 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Dickey doesn't get as much love as one might suspect. That's somewhat understandable when you consider his teammates were Ruth, Gehrig, and DiMaggio. I don't know Dickey's history very well but he seemed to miss a lot of playing time. He was up for 17 seasons and only qualified for the batting title (using the current rule) five times.
        Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by KCGHOST View Post
          Dickey doesn't get as much love as one might suspect. That's somewhat understandable when you consider his teammates were Ruth, Gehrig, and DiMaggio. I don't know Dickey's history very well but he seemed to miss a lot of playing time. He was up for 17 seasons and only qualified for the batting title (using the current rule) five times.
          All that squatting took a lot out of their legs. Up to the 1930's, not many catchers worked 100 games/season. Bill's record is not all that different from that of his 2 great era rivals, Gabby Hartnett/Mickey Cochrane.

          Gabby Hartnett---Mickey Cochrane---Bill Dickey

          In one 3-year stretch, Ray Schalk caught 404 games, Cochrane caught 120 or more games for 10 seasons, and Dickey caught 400 games in 3 straight seasons. All were considered feats of stamina at the time.

          Comment


          • #6
            Is there anyone on this site that can compare Dickey to Berra first hand? leewileyfan, leagueleader I'm looking at you. :candle:
            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
              Most people have him somewhere between 6-12 all-time as a catcher. That range is acceptable. Too far outside of that range requires some explanation.
              --I see him as at the bottom of that range. he was the third best catcher of his own time, behind Cochrane and Hartnett. He is definitely behind Berra, Campanella with any reasonable Negro league credit, Bench, Carter, Fisk, Piazza and Rodriguez. Gibson was almost certainly better (which would drop Dickey to 4th among contemporaries) and possibly Santop. Questionable whether any MLB catchers early than Hartnett were better, but many would give the nod to Ewing. You could argue for a few other more recent guys if you apply much of an LQ adjustment. Mauer is getting close even without one.

              Comment


              • #8
                Dickey's numbers are very comparable to Cochrane and Hartnett.

                G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB

                Dickey 1789 7064 6300 930 1969 343 72 202 1209 0.313 0.382 0.486 0.868 127 3062


                Cochrane 1482 6207 5169 1041 1652 333 64 119 832 0.32 0.419 0.478 0.897 129 2470



                Hartnett 1990 7297 6432 867 1912 396 64 236 1179 0.297 0.37 0.489 0.858 126 3144

                Dickey was a top notch catcher and part of a dynasty. I have him top 10.
                This week's Giant

                #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by KCGHOST View Post
                  Dickey doesn't get as much love as one might suspect. That's somewhat understandable when you consider his teammates were Ruth, Gehrig, and DiMaggio. I don't know Dickey's history very well but he seemed to miss a lot of playing time. He was up for 17 seasons and only qualified for the batting title (using the current rule) five times.
                  I think the thing that get missed about Dickey is that he was sort of a platoon player...this is an inexact analysis, but BBRef shows that Dickey had 1421 PAs in games started by lefties and 5643 PAs in games started by righties (roughly a 1:4 ratio). His near contemporary Gehrig, who obviously never missed games against anybody, had 2798/6865 PAs vs. L/R starters (more like 1:2.5). Catchers needed more time off back then, and Dickey generally got it against lefties (and obviously the Yanks were going to see plenty of those). This definitely helped his numbers a bit.
                  I have a personal "dislike" of Dickey for his cowardly attack from behind on Carl Reynolds after a collision at the plate...Reynolds was an excellent athlete and tough Texan SOB who I suspect would have cleaned Dickey's clock in a straight up fight. Dickey broke Reynolds' jaw and received a 30 day suspension, and I say that he deserved more than that for hitting a man from behind. However, this doesn't change the fact that Dickey was an excellent catcher, but definitely not a top 10 guy.
                  "If I drink whiskey, I'll never get worms!" - Hack Wilson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
                    All that squatting took a lot out of their legs. Up to the 1930's, not many catchers worked 100 games/season. Bill's record is not all that different from that of his 2 great era rivals, Gabby Hartnett/Mickey Cochrane.

                    Gabby Hartnett---Mickey Cochrane---Bill Dickey

                    In one 3-year stretch, Ray Schalk caught 404 games, Cochrane caught 120 or more games for 10 seasons, and Dickey caught 400 games in 3 straight seasons. All were considered feats of stamina at the time.
                    Catchers at that time didn't have mitts with breaks in them and had to use their throwing hand to trap the ball...this obviously led to a tremendous number of hand injuries. This was the reason old time catchers tended to have gnarly hands after long careers.
                    "If I drink whiskey, I'll never get worms!" - Hack Wilson

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