Most honored record?

[Appling]

PRIOR TO 1960, what in your opinion (or memory) was the best-known and most respected MLB record? Here are some choices:

1. Most homeruns in a season (60 by Babe Ruth)
2. Most homeruns in a career (714 by Ruth)
3. Most hits in a career (4191 by Ty Cobb)
4. Highest career batting average (.367 by Cobb)

My own recollection is that Ruth's 60-homerun season in 1927 was the best-known and most admired record in baseball -- partly because it was strongly challanged every few years, but never broken. Ruth's 1927 record was the "Supreme Crown".

... until 1961, when THE RECORD was broken by Roger Maris. Since Roger was not the super-star that Ruth was -- he was never "bigger than life", he never came close to a .300 BA season, and he had never hit even 40 homeruns in a season before he "beat the Babe" -- Maris seemed unworthy to wear the Supreme Crown.

Roger's lack of charisma and his perceived lack of worthiness then seemed to diminish the honor and respect that had long been given to the holder of that record, whoever he might be. The feat was no longer as amazing as it once had seemed. And since 1998, this record has lost even more of its charm.

I suspect that, should Barry Bonds break the career record now held by Aaron, it too will become less important than it is now. I think the "new" career record of 755 is highly respected now, largely due to respect for Hank Aaron.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

In terms of what number the public remembered:

60
56
714
511

would probably by my top 4

Of the ones you mentioned:

60
714
.367
4191

60 was the most famous record in all of sports and arguably still is. If you walk down the street and ask 100 random people. Just say "Baseball player - 60"...you'd probably get a ton of Babe Ruth responses. Not sure what other record would identify across the masses with one player as much. Strange, considering 60 isn't even the record anymore, and it's been passed so many times. Yet, it still matters.

[csh19792001]

Prior to 1960, many of the people who had seen both Cobb and Ruth play were still alive. Basically all of them considered Cobb the greatest player of all time, and average was considered the most important marker of hitting ability.

Ty's .367 lifetime average was, is, and always will be indomitable. Remains the greatest career record in baseball history.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Prior to 1960, many of the people who had seen both Cobb and Ruth play were still alive. Basically all of them considered Cobb the greatest player of all time, and average was considered the most important marker of hitting ability.

Ty's .367 lifetime average was, is, and always will be indomitable. Remains the greatest career record in baseball history.

As time passed on, Babe's slugging got hyped more and more. His all around skills went to the back burner in a lot of people's minds. They were in a sense blinded by his slugging prowess.

I agree that .367 is amazing.

Cobb was able to do what he did because nobody else took his approach, or possessed his rare skills to execute that approach, even if they tried.

The same can be said of Babe Ruth and his .690.

That record to me is the most amazing, and Cobb's .367 is right there as well.

[ElHalo]

In terms of what number the public remembered:

60
56
714
511

would probably by my top 4

I swear to you, I saw this last number and spent a solid forty-five seconds wondering what Mel Ott's HR total had to do with anything.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I swear to you, I saw this last number and spent a solid forty-five seconds wondering what Mel Ott's HR total had to do with anything.

No kiddin' EH? When you see 511 you think of Master Melvin rather than Denton True??

[yanks0714]

When I was growing up in the 1950's and 1960's the numbers that most talked about and written about were Babe's 60 HRs in 1927; his 714 HRs for a career; Ty Cobb's .367 BA; Cy Youngs' 511 wins, and Joe DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streak.

We also said that it would be WIllie Mays who broke the Babe's 714 record, not Hank Aaron.
It was also felt that it would be Mickey mantle, if he stayed healthy enough, who would break Babe's 60 HR mark.
The other three: .367, 511, and 56 would never be duplicated much less broken.

[csh19792001]

As time passed on, Babe's slugging got hyped more and more. His all around skills went to the back burner in a lot of people's minds. They were in a sense blinded by his slugging prowess.

I agree that .367 is amazing.

Cobb was able to do what he did because nobody else took his approach, or possessed his rare skills to execute that approach, even if they tried.

.

Randy-
I'm not sure what you mean when you say nobody else took Ty's approach. It sounds like you're speaking of himin the way people speak of nobody else taking Babe's approach to hitting for roughly the first 10 years of his homerun domination. Is this what you mean by that- a completely iconoclast whose style allowed him to set records that haven't been approached?

Do you think the steroid boom will be curtailed enough so that .690 is once again forever safe? Do you think both career records are completely unasssailable?

Are there other career offensive records that other members here view in the same light?

[csh19792001]

I swear to you, I saw this last number and spent a solid forty-five seconds wondering what Mel Ott's HR total had to do with anything.

h h

Twice spited- you used to refuse to rank Young on our "Top Pitchers of All Time" Polls because of his chronology!!

You wanna read a truly outstanding piece of writing, and learn a ton about the man and the era (including, of course, the rowdy 1890's- of which I know you're an enormus fan)?

Click here.

[Joltin' Joe]

No kiddin' EH? When you see 511 you think of Master Melvin rather than Denton True??

I thought so too. What's worse, I saw 56 and thought why is Hack's NL HR record so important. Of course after about 10 seconds everything came to....

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Randy-
I'm not sure what you mean when you say nobody else took Ty's approach. It sounds like you're speaking of himin the way people speak of nobody else taking Babe's approach to hitting for roughly the first 10 years of his homerun domination. Is this what you mean by that- a completely iconoclast whose style allowed him to set records that haven't been approached?

After the full rule changes were in effect, and after people saw what Babe did, and the kind of money that could be made hitting the long ball, others did try to copy his approach. They went to thinner handled bats with slightly larger barrels to get more "whip," and they tried to emulate his swing. Their experiments didn't last long because they realized they just couldn't do what he was doing. In going for the long ball, their BA would suffer greatly, and they couldn't come close to Ruth's consistent power anyway, so most abandoned it quickly. I view this much the same way I do Cobb. Others were faster, others were just as good of "pure" hitters, but Cobb took a rare approach to the game. Others could have tried to emulate, but none would have executed the way he did. So in a sense, yes, Babe and Ty were the best at their respective styles.

Do you think the steroid boom will be curtailed enough so that .690 is once again forever safe? Do you think both career records are completely unasssailable?

I think it will always be safe. I don't see that one coming down off the wall ever. To think, Teddy Ballgame is the next closest guy and he's .56 points behind.

Are there other career offensive records that other members here view in the same light?

Just off the top of my head, Crawford's triples are pretty safe due to size of ballparks, and probably Speaker's doubles too. Babe's 2 legs of the triple crown 7 times is pretty nice, not sure if that's a record or who's close.

[Myankee4life]

I'd say the 714 HR's because it was a exclusive club at the time. Slg % records were'nt really as mainstream as HR's. The HR after the deadball era became the most known and glamorized stat. A close second was 60HR's. But Foxx and Greenberg came close with 58 so it could of been done.

[jpenrod]

Since I am not old enough to have personal experience prior to 1960 I have to base my opinion on the experience I do have. 60 home runs is a very recognizable number as much for how it has been treated since 1960 as for what the number itself represents. What I mean by that is that when Maris broke the record in 1961 much was made about the extended schedule and what not to the point that an asterick was placed next to maris' record. it was not until later that the record was removed. the same people that knew of Ruth's 60 home runs knew of Maris' 61 becaus eo f the big ordel it created (comeone there was a movie made about it). In 1998 McGwire and Sammy were chasing 61 and again the history and controvesy was brought to light and brought to the forefront of people's mind.

Now compare that to 714 and this is my experience. Ask 10 people knowledgable of baseball (not walking encylopedias but casual fans that know the game) how many home runs Babe Ruth had and they will probably all tell you 714 (this has been my experience anyway). Follow that with who holds the record for most home runs in their career and they will probably all tell you Hank Aaron. Now ask them how many HR's Aaron has and you will probably get equal distribution of three answers (as equal as you can with 10/3)of 715, 755 and I don't know. my point is they know that Aaron holds the record but there is an equal distribution (among average fans) that still identify the record with Aaron breaking Ruths record by hitting 715 and those that know he hit 755.

As for cobbs record the average fan has know real knowledg of these.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Now compare that to 714 and this is my experience. Ask 10 people knowledgable of baseball (not walking encylopedias but casual fans that know the game) how many home runs Babe Ruth had and they will probably all tell you 714 (this has been my experience anyway). Follow that with who holds the record for most home runs in their career and they will probably all tell you Hank Aaron. Now ask them how many HR's Aaron has and you will probably get equal distribution of three answers (as equal as you can with 10/3)of 715, 755 and I don't know. my point is they know that Aaron holds the record but there is an equal distribution (among average fans) that still identify the record with Aaron breaking Ruths record by hitting 715 and those that know he hit 755.

This reminded me of a couple pages from Creamer's book:

"What I have tried to do in this book is go beyond the gentle inaccuracies and omissions of the earlier accounts and produce a total biography, one that, hopefully, would present all the fact and myths, the statistical details and personal exuberance, the obvious and subtle things that combine to make the man born George Ruth a unique figure in the social history of the United States.

For more than any other man, Babe Ruth transcended sport, moved far beyond the artificial limits of the baselines and outfield fences and sports pages. As I write this, he is dead and buried for more than twenty-five years, and it is nearly forty years since he played his last major league game. Yet almost every day, certainly several times a week, you read and hear about him.

As Henry Aaron moved toward Ruth's career record of 714 home runs, he said, 'I can't recall a day this year or last when I did not hear the name of Babe Ruth.' Sometimes the references come in comic profusion. When Willie Sutton was released from prison, amid the odd adulation we Americans like to give excrescences on the fabric of society, Time reminded us that he was known as 'the Babe Ruth of bank robbers.' A caption in the New York Times under a photograph of Enrico Caruso, illustrating the story on Franco Corelli, the singer, dubbed Caruso 'the Babe Ruth of operatic tenors.' A press release from Long Beach, California, said that Chuck Stearns was 'the Babe Ruth of water skiing.' John Lahr, in his thanks to those who helped him as he wrote the biography of his father, Bert Lahr, called Suzi Arensberg of Alfred A. Knopf 'the Babe Ruth of copy editors.' Someone at Simon and Schuster may disagree, but there it is.

It goes on and on. Philippe Halsman photographed his hundredth cover for Life and declared, 'This is the high point of my career. It has taken me 27 years to achieve this record and I like to think of it as the equal of, maybe the superior of, Babe Ruth's.' The New York Mets brought up a promising young slugger named Mike Jorgensen, who said, with a cheerful nod toward the concept of transmigration of souls, that he couldn't miss as a major leaguer because he was born August 16, 1948, the day Babe Ruth died.

Thus, Ruth lives, all around us, which is a matter of satisfaction to some, irritation to others, disinterest to few. When Marianne Moore, the baseball fan, was asked about Ruth she said, 'I never particularly like him. He was tough.' Roger Maris, when in 1961 he pursued and broke Ruth's sacrosanct record of 60 home runs in one season, was subject to a continuing stream of abuse from spectators, sportswriters, letter writers, people in the street, people who for some reason deeply resented what Maris was doing and who felt impelled to act as surrogates for Ruth in trying to defend his record.

Maris broke it anyhow, with a laudable display of sustained skill and athletic courage, yet a decade later only a handful of people knew where Roger was or what he was doing, while tenors and bank robbers and photographers and God knows who all else were still being measured against an indefinable standard of superiority called Babe Ruth. What will you bet that people, and not just those who attacked Maris, will write in after reading this and point our with some acerbity that Maris did not break Ruth's record, that Ruth hit his 60 in the old 154-game season and that Roger had only 59 after 154 games and needed the extra times at bat of the expanded 162-game season to get 60, let alone 61? The phrase 'with an asterisk,' meaning a qualified success, came into common American usage after that 1961 season because of diehard insistence that Maris did not really break the Babe's record.

Maris himself never said a word against Ruth, so far as I know, but, Lord, he must have tired of hearing Babe Ruth's name. So have others. Or, at any rate, they have tired of hearing of Ruth as hero. Leanard Shecter, in his book The Jocks, a somewhat sophmoric attempt to tell the ungilded truth about sport, tried to undo the popular image of Ruth as a jolly, lovable, funmaking giant. Shecter wrote, 'In fact, he was a gross man of gargantuan, undisciplined appetites for food, whiskey and women...Ruth was never the playful, outgoing man he was supposed to be...It does not take much research to find out what the Babe was really like. It doesn't matter. The fake Babe Ruth is more palatable than the real one.'

And I hurry to blunt Shecter's comments because Ruth is alive for me too, and I know he is more complex than that, and I want my idea of the total truth about him to be known.

How many people dead a quarter of a century can arouse so much continuing interst, so much passion? Granted, we make special folk heroes of those highly proficient in sport. But very few people care, one way or the other, that Ty Cobb was a psychotic or that Honus Wagner as an old man coaching with Pittsburgh used to swipe baseballs and trade them for beers. Yet many insist that Cobb was a better ballplayer than Ruth, and Wagner may have been better than both of them. Does it matter about Cobb or Wagner? No. Yet Ruth matters.

Max Eastman wrote, 'The mind should approach a body of knowledge as the eyes approach an object, seeing it in gross outline first, and then by gradual steps, without losing the outline, discovering the details.' Has there ever been a grosser outline than that of Babe Ruth? Ask anyone. Babe Ruth? Baseball player. Home run hitter. Big fat guy, moon face, huge torso, skinny legs. Hit 60 home runs in one year. Hit more home runs than anybody else. Tremendous home run hitter. Ate a lot of hot dogs. Loved kids.

Hollywood made a movie about him, starring William Bendix, who should have had more sense. Terrible movie. Ran out all the myths and extended them to their illogical conclusions and then invented a dozen new ones. For thousands of people, maybe millions, Williams Bendix in a baseball suit is what Babe Ruth looked like. Which is a terrible shame, because lots of men look like William Bendix, but nobody else ever looked like Babe Ruth. Or behaved like him. Or did all the things he did in his repressed, explosive, truncated life." (Creamer)

[Appling]

(1) I'd say the 714 HR's because it was a exclusive club at the time...

(2) A close second was 60HR's. But Foxx and Greenberg came close with 58 so it could of been done.

(1) Yes the 714 HR record was an "exclusive club" for sure. Until Mays and Aaron came along, the NL record for career homeruns was 511 by Mel Ott.
For many years, the AL runner-up to Ruth was Jimmie Foxx 534.

(2) As I recall it, the "challanges" by Foxx and Greenberg -- and later by Kiner, Mize and Mantle -- was what kept interest alive in Ruth's 60-HR record. At the time, there was much higher awareness of the single-season record than there was in Ruth's "unreachable" career total of 714.