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  • #31
    I always assumed ElHalo was never entirely serious in his posts. Willie Keeler was better than Tony Gwynn?
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
      I always assumed ElHalo was never entirely serious in his posts. Willie Keeler was better than Tony Gwynn?
      I am glad I missed those ignorant posts. It is kinda funny, but sad in a way too. Sad because it makes the site look pretty bad.
      "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

      Comment


      • #33
        I am not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet or not, but we have 13 World Series from 1978 to 1990.

        Twelve different franchises won the World Series. Only my Dodgers won two Series in that time. That helped to spread out what was perceived to be the stars and the heroes of the game.
        Your Second Base Coach
        Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Second Base Coach View Post
          I am not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet or not, but we have 13 World Series from 1978 to 1990.

          Twelve different franchises won the World Series. Only my Dodgers won two Series in that time. That helped to spread out what was perceived to be the stars and the heroes of the game.
          That's what I call parity. Or to say, the good old days.

          Sent from my LG-E976 using Tapatalk
          "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
          George Brett

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by 538280 View Post
            With all the talk about star power in the 70s and 30s, we had some members also saying how they thought the 1980s was a very weak period in baseball, and that it had a real lack of true stars. Bill James also offered this opinion in the original version of his Historical Baseball Abstract when he said this:

            "The baseball which returned from the strike in 1982 was perhaps a little lackluster. Most Valuable Players and Cy Young Award Winners were difficult to identify for a couple of years, 40 homer seasons were all but extinct and reliable starting pitchers scarcer than normal."

            All of this, IMO, is quite clearly false. The MVPs in the five years 1982-1986 were Dale Murphy (twice), Robin Yount, Cal Ripken, Ryne Sandberg, Willie Hernandez, Don Mattingly, Willie McGee, Mike Schmidt, and Roger Clemens. Out of that, we have two fluke MVPs, who really weren't all that great players but just had an outstanding one season (Hernandez, McGee). Every era has a few of these, that's nothing out of the ordinary. It's not like nobodies were winning because no one was any good. Then we have two near HOF players who some want in (Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly), and the rest (Yount, Ripken, Sandberg, Schmidt, Clemens) are all truly great players and pretty much consensus all time greats (with the possible exception of Sandberg.

            Cy Young winners were perhaps a little bit more flukish, but that is true with the general way the awards have gone. There have always been more fluke players winning the Cy Young than the MVP. Players like Mike McCormick, Jim Lonborg, Bob Turley, Vern Law, Dean Chance and Randy Jones all won Cy Youngs in other eras. The Cy Youngs in the years after the strike were Steve Carlton, Pete Vuckovich, John Denny, LaMarr Hoyt, Rick Sutcliffe, Willie Hernandez, Dwight Gooden, Bret Saberhagen, Mike Scott, and Roger Clemens. We have two all time greats in Carlton and Clemens, three who were all time great for a short time but didn't last long (Gooden, Scott, Saberhagen), and the rest are good pitchers who had career years. However, like I said this is normal. Every era of the CYA has had a large number of fluke winners.

            I don't find the MVP or CYA winners after the strike to be "difficult to indentify with".

            With the 40 home run seaosns, there were four in the five years after the strike, those by Tony Armas, Mike Schmidt, Darrell Evans, and Jesse Barfield. 40 home run seasons were down a bit, so what? The 80s weren't a huge home run era. That doesn't say anything about the quality of the league or its stars.

            James goes on.....

            "There was a transition period between generations of stars, with the Roses and Reggies and Ryans and Carltons fading slowly away and the Bogges and Mattinglys and Tim Raineses and Tony Gwynns not yet fully established. Only a few superstars, Dale Murphy and Robin Yount being the obvious ones, bridged the gap. George Brett and Jim Rice, though still of an age to be dominant players, did not dominate."

            Rice wasn't dominating that much, but I don't know where he got that part about George Brett from. Brett was dominating. He had an awesome 1985 season, and good years throughout the decade, certainly just as dominant as his 1970s seasons.

            Anyway, James is wrong about there not being many stars to bridge the gap. He mentions Murphy and Yount, I'll give some more great stars of that time:

            Cal Ripken, Eddie Murray, Dwight Evans, Wade Boggs, Bobby Grich, Carlton Fisk, Lou Whitaker, Alan Trammell, George Brett, Paul Molitor, Ted Simmons, Dave Winfield, Willie Randolph, Rickey Henderson, Ryne Sandberg, Gary Carter, Andre Dawson, Tim Raines, Al Oliver, Mike Schmidt, Keith Hernandez, and Ozzie Smith.

            That's a pretty distinguished list of stars, and I'd put them against the big boys from just about any era. All those guys (along with Yount and Murphy) were "bridging the gap", and they did it quite well.

            That ends James' argument.

            Another thing to take into consideration I've heard a few times here is that the "baby boom" generation was reaching maturity in the 1980s. That's the time there were many people bieng born, and the country was expanding its horizons. New technology for fitness was coming out, and the computer age was really beginning. This was the time when workout gyms became common and people really all started believing the virtues of a weight lifting program.

            Statisticians have tried to come up with ways to quantify league quality of play, including our very own SABR Matt recently, and the general conclusion has been that the 1978-1986 period (the exact time James described as "lackluster") was, indeed the strongest time for baseball, and the relative lack of separation from the pack of the stars is because of this.

            So, I'd like to hear some opinions on this. How do you think the 1980s star pwer and quality of play compares to other eras?

            I personally think the 1980s are probably the 2nd highest level baseball we've had, behind the 1970s.
            I wanted to bring the old timey OP into this page, just to be sure we all know where this conversation had started out before the 80s-bashing came in. I saw this line in here and was just thinking about it the other day when looking at the insane Ryne Sandberg comment in that unbearable PED thread. I don't know what, if anything, Ryno did to change his approach to hit home runs more in 1989 and 1990, but there are countless examples of star baseball players in that period who worked out with a trainer or at a gym in the offseason and saw a spike in power.

            We have posters here who bring up the Fred Lynn example from the 1978-1979 offseason, and on youtube while watching a game from 1985 with the White Sox in it the announcers mentioned that Carlton Fisk had worked out hard with weights and was (at that time) either leading the AL or among the leaders in home runs. I have a bunch of stuff here about the 1985 Cardinals, and my man Tom Herr worked out more with weights after the 1984 season and said he felt the positive results.

            Just something interesting I have been noticing after going back over the wonderful game in that special (for me) decade. To see it called the "strongest time for baseball" by the OP back then makes my heart smile, too. Personally, I think the game was very strong for a couple decades leading up to the waves of expansion in the 1990s (and all the PED and other issues).

            Like any decade, the 1980s carried into it a lot of the big name stars of the 1970s and some greats still playing fine ball that got their start in the 1960s. Heck, Jim Kaat was still a very reliable lefty-handed reliever and spot starter for the Redbirds from 1980 to 1983 and he started his career in 1959! So, lots of star power crossover from the 1960s and 1970s. Then we get our own breed of 1980s call-ups that become stars, and many of them will run into the 1990s and 2000s. Toss in all the record breakers the 1980s saw, the bright burning future stars, the one-hit wonders and we have a very star-packed quality decade -- just like we can find in all the others.

            If I had more time, I would now break down all the big name stars that fit these categories. I can't believe anyone would say that a decade didn't have star power, or produce any great players. That doesn't make any sense at all to me. Whatever. It takes all kinds, right? This website needs its Mario Mendoza types too I guess. But now I am curious, thinking back, I wonder what milestones and records happened in the 1980s:

            300 Wins
            Gaylord Perry
            Tom Seaver
            Steve Carlton
            Phil Niekro
            Don Sutton

            3000 K
            Nolan Ryan
            Steve Carlton
            Ferguson Jenkins
            Phil Niekro
            Don Sutton
            Tom Seaver
            Bert Blyleven

            4000 K
            Nolan Ryan
            Steve Carlton

            5000 K
            Nolan Ryan

            All-Time Strikeout King
            Nolan Ryan -- Passed Walter Johnson
            Steve Carlton -- Passed Nolan Ryan
            Nolan Ryan -- Passed Steve Carlton

            300 K Season
            Mike Scott
            Nolan Ryan

            20 K Game
            Roger Clemens

            All-Time Saves King

            Rollie Fingers

            Single-Season Saves Record Breakers
            Bruce Sutter - 45 in 1984, NL
            Dan Quisenberry - 45 in 1984, AL
            Dave Righetti - 46 in 1986, AL

            Fastest to 100 Career Saves
            Todd Worrell

            300 Career Saves
            Rollie Fingers
            Bruce Sutter
            Goose Gossage

            500 Home Runs
            Reggie Jackson

            Rookie Home Run Record
            Mark McGwire - 49 in 1987, AL

            3000 Hits
            Rod Carew

            National League All-Time Hit King
            Pete Rose -- Passed Stan Musial

            4000 Hits
            Pete Rose

            All-Time Hit King
            Pete Rose -- Passed Ty Cobb

            Single Season Stolen Base King
            Rickey Henderson - 130 in 1982, AL

            First to Steal 100+ in First 3 Seasons
            Vince Coleman - 1985-1987, also first rookie to steal 100+ bases

            Consecutive Games Played Streak
            Steve Garvey - Sets NL mark
            Cal Ripken - Starts AL mark, and sets longest streak of consecutive innings played at shortstop

            Oldest Man to hit a Grand Slam
            Tony Perez - 1985, NL

            Most Consecutive Shutout Innings
            Orel Hershiser

            Closest Batting Average to .400 since Ted Williams
            George Brett

            There are some others too, but I am trying to remember back to those "Record Breaker" baseball cards that Topps put out each year. That is how I remember Tony Perez hitting the grand slam. Davey Lopes set a record with the Astros in 1986, too, something about the oldest man to have 20 or so stolen bases. Anyway, there were a ton of records being set and broken in the 1980s, and a lot of great players from the 1960s and 1970s were still going strong in the 1980s and giving fans of that decade the chance to see them pass up incredible milestones on their way to Cooperstown. There were also a lot of future Hall of Fame players that ended their careers in the 1980s, along with many other fine players who haven't made the Hall. Just like any other decade.

            In fact, my biggest gripe with the 1980s is the terrible uniform choices, but I will let that sleeping dog lie. . .
            "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Herr28 View Post
              I am glad I missed those ignorant posts. It is kinda funny, but sad in a way too. Sad because it makes the site look pretty bad.
              I tried to press ElHalo as to why he had such a low view of 1980's baseball given that he was born in December 1981 and he couldn't possibly have had any detailed memories of watching 1980's baseball even the 1989 season when he was just 7 years old and also the fact that there hasn't really been any detailed historical baseball books written about the 1980's. He never gave me an answer.
              Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 01-05-2015, 10:47 AM.
              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Second Base Coach View Post
                I am not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet or not, but we have 13 World Series from 1978 to 1990.

                Twelve different franchises won the World Series. Only my Dodgers won two Series in that time. That helped to spread out what was perceived to be the stars and the heroes of the game.
                Even winning two consecutive division titles was rare during this era. I think the only teams to do it were the 1984-85 Kansas City Royals and the 1988-90 Oakland A's?
                Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 01-05-2015, 10:48 AM.
                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                  I tried to press ElHalo as to why he had such a low view of 1980's baseball given that he was born in the December 1981 and he couldn't possibly have had any detailed memories of watching 1980's baseball even the 1989 season when he was just 7 years old and also the fact that there hasn't really been any detailed historical baseball books written about the 1980's. He never gave me an answer.
                  Crazy. What a joke.

                  Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                  Even winning two consecutive division titles was rare during this era. I think the only teams to do it was the 1984-85 Kansas City Royals and the Oakland A's 1988-90?
                  I posted an article in your 1977-1986 thread on this difficulty to repeat. It included interviews with the GMs of the Tigers, Padres, Cubs and some conversations they had with others that came before them. Free agency was one complaint they had, parity was another reason (and multiplied when one of the teams could snag a great free agent or two in the winter), and some other things that I can't remember (and I think some sounded silly, but they were having that conversation 30 years before I read it).

                  The Cardinals could have repeated, if the strike hadn't happened in 1981. But, the Expos and Phillies were still very strong that year and they may not have ended up on top after a full slate. The Dodgers were strong quite often in the weaker NL West, and the Cardinals and Mets really slugged it out from 1985-1988 switching back and forth from the top spot. The Cubs were the bookends to that St. Louis/New York run, winning the East in both 1984 and 1989.

                  There were a lot of teams that were strong year in and out, but just couldn't stay in the top spot. The Cardinals suffered severe injury issues that torpedoed them in 1983 (drugs took a big chunk out of that year too), 1986 and 1988. The Mets were solid from 1984-1989, while the Phils were good from 1980-1983 before tapering off. The Expos were a fine team all decade, the Dodgers had their years in the West winning often (and they were the only team to win 2 World Series in the 1980s, Cardinals the only team to go to 3). Houston had some fantastic seasons. In the AL I remember the Angels and White Sox being fine teams in the West for a lot of years before the A's took over. The East had a bunch of powerful teams that seemed to trade off divisional pennants almost every year.

                  There always seemed to be a lot more teams with a shot at winning it all each spring than there were the teams you knew were going to suck. Kinda like now, what with the 2 Wild Card spots, a lot of teams can have that chance to get hot in October and win the big trophy. I just remember it being extremely exciting back then, but that is also because I was a starry eyed kid and not some grizzled vet like now.
                  "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Since I was born in the late 1960s, 1980s baseball brings back my fondest memories. As a baseball fan, we didn't have the internet, or Cable TV for the first half of the 1980s. But many of us fans watched Mel Allen's T.W.I.B, read the sporting news, subscribed to Baseball Digest, couldn't wait for the sports section of our local papers to arrive in the morning to check out box scores, asked for baseball books for Christmas(The Ultimate Baseball Book was my favorite then), and religiously watched Baseball's Monday night baseball game.

                    With all of that being said, I think that the 1980s were a great time to be a fan. Ryne Sandberg was a beast. Ozzie had insane range. Ripken was the smoothest-fielding SS I've ever seen. Goose Gossage's 99 mph rising fastball was the scariest fastball that I've ever seen. And of course, the Niekro brothers had insane knuckleballs, especially when Joe scuffed it. And who can forget Gaylord Perry's supersoaker. I doubt Reggie Jackson has forgotten. Reggie Jackson was a monster, a guy capable of hitting a ball 500+ feet. The saddest story was JR Richard. And of course, our arch rivals, the late 1980s Oakland As was a team that I clearly despised.

                    I think LQ was at an all-time high in the 1980s up until that point of time. I have always said that. But I think it has gotten even better since then. Based on my own observation, the skill level has improved since then. The fielders have become much more acrobatic, with a few exceptions. And the pitchers have much better repertoires.

                    I believe LQ has improved steadily since the beginning of time. The 1980s are my most memorable. I watched hundreds of games from that era, something that'll never happen again.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      From memory -- though I am sure I will forget a whole bunch of star players:

                      Catchers
                      Johnny Bench
                      Ted Simmons
                      Gary Carter
                      Carlton Fisk
                      Lance Parrish
                      Terry Kennedy
                      Darrell Porter
                      Tony Pena
                      Benito Santiago
                      Ernie Whitt
                      Rick Dempsey
                      Steve Yeager
                      Mickey Tettleton
                      Butch Wynegar
                      Jody Davis
                      Bob Brenly
                      Terry Steinbach
                      Rick Cerone
                      BJ Surhoff
                      Alan Ashby
                      Jim Sundberg
                      John Wathan
                      John Stearns
                      Bob Boone
                      Darren Daulton
                      Mike Lavalliere
                      Ron Hassey
                      Bo Diaz
                      Mike Scoiscia

                      First Base
                      Keith Hernandez
                      Steve Garvey
                      Pete Rose
                      Wally Joyner
                      Mark McGwire
                      Leon Durham
                      Bill Buckner
                      Andre Thornton
                      Willie Upshaw
                      Fred McGriff
                      Mark Grace
                      Glenn Davis
                      Kent Hrbek
                      Steve Balboni
                      Alvin Davis
                      Bruce Bochte
                      Will Clark
                      Jack Clark
                      Pete O'Brien
                      Pat Tabler
                      Darrell Evans
                      Rod Carew
                      Eddie Murray
                      Andres Galarraga
                      Jason Thompson
                      Tony Perez
                      Nick Esasky
                      Don Mattingly
                      Carl Yastrzemski
                      Willie Stargell

                      Second Base
                      Tom Herr
                      Ryne Sandberg
                      Joe Morgan
                      Marty Barrett
                      Dave Lopes
                      Johnny Ray
                      Ron Oester
                      Willie Randolph
                      Steve Sax
                      Damaso Garcia
                      Robby Thompson
                      Manny Trillo
                      Tony Bernazard
                      Frank White
                      Lou Whitaker
                      Bobby Grich
                      Juan Samuel
                      Toby Harrah
                      Harold Reynolds
                      Julio Cruz
                      Jimmy Gantner
                      Bump Wills
                      Glenn Hubbard

                      Shortstop
                      Ozzie Smith
                      Garry Templeton
                      Alfredo Griffin
                      Barry Larkin
                      Dave Concepcion
                      Spike Owen
                      Rick Burleson
                      Hubie Brooks
                      Tony Fernandez
                      Julio Franco
                      Greg Gagne
                      Dick Schofield
                      Dickie Thon
                      Cal Ripken
                      Alan Trammell
                      Larry Bowa
                      Ivan DeJesus
                      Bill Russell
                      Scott Fletcher
                      Robin Yount
                      Roy Smalley
                      Bucky Dent

                      Third Base
                      Wade Boggs
                      Doug DeCinces
                      Mike Schmidt
                      George Brett
                      Terry Pendleton
                      Gary Gaetti
                      Steve Buechele
                      Ron Cey
                      Carney Lansford
                      Jim Presley
                      Kevin Seitzer
                      Paul Molitor
                      Kevin Mitchell
                      Howard Johnson
                      Ray Knight
                      Kelly Gruber
                      Luis Salazar
                      Craig Nettles
                      Bob Horner
                      Keith Moreland
                      Phil Garner
                      Bill Madlock
                      Rance Mullinicks
                      Mike Pagliarulo

                      Left Field
                      Rickey Henderson
                      Vince Coleman
                      Ron Kittle
                      Lonnie Smith
                      Mike Greenwell
                      Pedro Guerrero
                      Dave Kingman
                      Greg Luzinski
                      Tim Raines
                      Jose Cruz
                      Gary Matthews
                      Barry Bonds
                      Ben Oglivie
                      Don Baylor
                      George Bell
                      Phil Bradley
                      Brian Downing
                      Jim Rice
                      Danny Gladden

                      Center Field
                      Willie McGee
                      Andy van Slyke
                      Tony Armas
                      Dale Murphy
                      Andre Dawson
                      Dave Henderson
                      Mookie Wilson
                      Lenny Dykstra
                      Cesar Cedeno
                      Brett Butler
                      John Shelby
                      Kevin McReynolds
                      Kirby Puckett
                      Gorman Thomas
                      Lloyd Moseby
                      Gary Pettis
                      Bob Dernier
                      Devon White

                      Right Field
                      Reggie Jackson
                      Dwight Evans
                      Tony Gwynn
                      Tom Brunansky
                      Dave Winfield
                      Jesse Barfield
                      Mike Marshall
                      Glenn Wilson
                      George Hendrick
                      Ruppert Jones
                      Von Hayes
                      Dave Parker

                      Starting Pitchers
                      Roger Clemens
                      Nolan Ryan
                      Tom Seaver
                      Jerry Koosman
                      Steve Carlton
                      Ferguson Jenkins
                      Phil Niekro
                      Joe Niekro
                      Gaylord Perry
                      Jim Kaat
                      Tommy John
                      Ron Guidry
                      Frank Tanana
                      Rick Sutcliffe
                      Fernando Valenzuela
                      John Tudor
                      Mike Scott
                      Dwight Gooden
                      Charlie Hough
                      Jack Morris
                      Jim Palmer
                      Scott McGregor
                      Mike Flanagan
                      Mike Boddicker
                      Frank Viola
                      LaMarr Hoyt
                      Pete Vuckovich
                      Teddy Higuera
                      Charlie Lea
                      Scott Sanderson
                      Steve Rogers
                      Bryn Smith
                      Mark Langston
                      Mike Moore
                      Dave Stewart
                      Orel Hershiser
                      Bruce Hurst
                      Doug Drabek
                      Andy Hawkins
                      Danny Cox
                      Bob Forsch
                      Rick Mahler
                      Mike Witt
                      Kirk McCaskill
                      Don Sutton
                      Mike Caldwell
                      Larry Gura
                      Bret Saberhagen
                      Charlie Leibrandt
                      Danny Jackson
                      Doyle Alexander
                      Walt Terrell
                      Dan Petry
                      Bob Welch
                      Mike Krukow
                      Jim Clancy
                      Dave Stieb
                      Jimmy Key
                      Rick Rhoden
                      Curt Young
                      Rich Dotson
                      Dave Dravecky
                      Rick Reuschel
                      Chuck Finley
                      Floyd Bannister
                      Joaquin Andujar
                      Rick Wise
                      Mike Smithson
                      Bert Blyleven
                      Mario Soto
                      Tom Browning
                      Jose Rijo
                      Bob Tewksbury
                      Bob Knepper
                      Sid Fernandez
                      Bob Ojeda
                      Ron Darling
                      Greg Swindell
                      Jim Deshaies
                      Mike Morgan

                      Relief Pitchers
                      Tom Henke
                      Bruce Sutter
                      Goose Gossage
                      Jeff Reardon
                      Rollie Fingers
                      Sparky Lyle
                      Kent Tekulve
                      Jesse Orosco
                      Dan Quisenberry
                      Roger McDowell
                      Steve Howe
                      Tom Niedenfuer
                      Bill Campbell
                      Dave Caudill
                      Aurelio Lopez
                      Willie Hernandez
                      Jeff Montgomery
                      Mike Henneman
                      Tim Burke
                      Bob James
                      Bobby Thigpen
                      Tippy Martinez
                      Donnie Moore
                      Dave Righetti
                      Don Aase
                      Terry Forster
                      Tom Hume
                      Ron Davis
                      Todd Worrell
                      Jeff Lahti
                      Mark Littell
                      Joe Sambito
                      Gary Lavelle
                      Dave LaRoche
                      Tug McGraw
                      Greg Harris
                      Dave Smith
                      Lee Smith
                      Steve Bedrosian
                      Jay Howell
                      Dennis Eckersley
                      Bob Stanley
                      Calvin Schiraldi
                      Mark Davis
                      Mitch Williams
                      Jim Gott
                      Gene Garber
                      Greg Minton
                      Dennis Lamp
                      Mark Eichhorn
                      Brian Fisher
                      "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Good to see Tom Henke in there. People forget how dominant he was. And he's the only closer to retire while really being at top of his game.

                        Sent from my LG-E976 using Tapatalk
                        "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                        George Brett

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Yankillaz View Post
                          Good to see Tom Henke in there. People forget how dominant he was. And he's the only closer to retire while really being at top of his game.

                          Sent from my LG-E976 using Tapatalk
                          Some kind of shoulder or arm issue when he was with the Cardinals in 1995. That shut him down, but you are right that he did get to go out on top of his game. When he came in he really solidified the Blue Jays bullpen in 1985. They had veteran Bill Caudill in there, but he went through a bad spell. Apparently, according to one of the old editions of The Sporting News from late 1985 I bought in the past year, former Caudill teammate Gaylord Perry noticed something with Bill's delivery that wasn't right and contacted the Jays to ask if he could help his old buddy.

                          The story said something about Caudill tweaking his delivery, like many pitchers in the 1980s to combat the running game, and in so doing screwed up his control. Perry saw him pitching on TV and noticed the glitch, and was afraid Caudill (who threw very hard for that time) was going to seriously hurt his arm because of his power. The former Seattle teammate called the Blue Jays, and they allowed him to come up (can't remember now where the team was, either home or on the road) and work with their struggling closer -- remember the Jays were battling for the AL East division crown that summer -- so he could hopefully get Caudill back on track.

                          Perry showed up and was given the uniform of Luis Leal (a former star pitcher for the Jays who was fading out hard that season, his last in MLB), and worked with Caudill in the 'pen before a game and they got it. Just like that, the Blue Jays closer was back to throwing strikes in his old form, but still was able to work in his quicker move with men on base to help shut down that running game (Rickey Henderson was in his division, and on the team they were fighting against for first -- the Yankees). Perry was asked about the help he offered, and he brought up the fact he and Caudill were teammates in Seattle when the old spitballer was shooting for his career win number 300. Perry said Caudill saved games for him, so he wanted to help save one for Bill by working with him.
                          "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            More came to mind, and now I think this is going to be running in my mind all night...

                            Kevin Bass - OF
                            Billy Hatcher - OF
                            Joe Carter - OF/1B
                            Cory Snyder - OF
                            Fred Lynn - OF
                            Tim Wallach - 3B
                            Ruben Sierra - OF
                            Pete Incaviglia - OF
                            Rob Deer - OF
                            Cecil Cooper - 1B
                            Eric Davis - OF
                            Darryl Strawberry - OF
                            Kirk Gibson - OF
                            Larry Herndon - OF
                            Chet Lemon - OF
                            Mike Davis - OF
                            Dwayne Murphy - OF
                            Brook Jacoby - 3B
                            Candy Maldonado - OF
                            Hal McRae - OF/DH
                            Willie Wilson - OF
                            Omar Moreno - OF
                            Mike Easler - OF/DH
                            Ken Phelps - 1B/DH
                            Buddy Bell - 3B
                            Danny Tartabull - OF
                            Mitch Webster - OF
                            Shawon Dunston - SS
                            Matt Williams - 3B
                            Jeff Leonard - OF
                            Walt Weiss - SS
                            Bobby Bonilla - 3B/OF
                            Kurt Stillwell - SS
                            Jody Reed - 2B
                            Wayne Gross - 3B
                            Al Oliver - OF/1B
                            Jeff Burroughs - DH/OF
                            Cliff Johnson - DH
                            Lee Lacy - OF
                            Chili Davis - OF
                            Ken Griffey - OF/1B
                            Terry Puhl - OF
                            Dan Driessen - 1B
                            Lee Mazzilli - OF
                            Tim Teufel - 2B
                            Wally Backman - 2B
                            Gene Richards - OF
                            Dusty Baker - OF
                            Bake McBride - OF
                            Ron LeFlore - OF
                            Dave Collins - OF
                            Jerry Mumphrey - OF
                            Ken Reitz - 3B
                            Ken Oberkfell - 2B/3B
                            Dane Iorg - OF/PH
                            Greg Gross - OF/PH
                            Gerald Perry - 1B
                            Rusty Staub - OF
                            Gene Tenace - 1B/C/PH
                            Ken Singleton - OF/DH
                            Ken Landreaux - OF
                            John Mayberry - 1B
                            Willie Aikens - 1B
                            Jerry Martin - OF
                            Bo Jackson - OF
                            George Foster - OF
                            Mike Hargrove - 1B
                            Amos Otis - OF
                            Larry Parrish - 3B/OF/DH
                            Ellis Burks - OF
                            Greg Walker - 1B
                            Harold Baines - OF/DH
                            Jose Canseco - OF
                            Milt Thompson - OF
                            Alan Wiggins - OF
                            Rich Gedman - C
                            Rick Cerone - C
                            Ozzie Guillen - SS
                            Mariano Duncan - SS
                            Gary Redus - OF/1B
                            Jose Uribe - SS
                            Kal Daniels - OF
                            Matt Nokes - C
                            Oddibe McDowell - OF
                            Chris Sabo - 3B
                            Ken Caminiti - 3B
                            Craig Biggio - C
                            Rafael Palmerio - OF

                            Burt Hooten - SP
                            Jerry Reuss - SP
                            Rick Aguleira - SP/RP
                            John Denny - SP
                            Mark Gubicza - SP
                            Dennis Martinez - SP
                            Pete Ladd - RP
                            Mark Clear - RP
                            Dan Plesac - RP
                            Len Barker - SP
                            Jim Abbott - SP
                            Larry Andersen - RP
                            Tim Belcher - SP
                            Bud Black - SP/RP
                            Oil Can Boyd - SP
                            John Candelaria - SP
                            Ernie Camacho - RP
                            Tom Candiotti - SP
                            David Cone - SP
                            Storm Davis - SP
                            Jose DeLeon - SP
                            Pascual Perez - SP
                            Steve Farr - RP
                            John Franco - RP
                            Scott Garrelts - SP/RP
                            Tom Glavine - SP
                            Greg Maddux - SP
                            Tom Gordon - SP
                            Kevin Gross - SP
                            Bryan Harvey - RP
                            Randy Johnson - SP
                            Dave LaPoint - SP
                            Tim Leary - SP
                            Bill Wegman - SP
                            Steve Stone - SP
                            Joe Magrane - SP
                            Randy Myers - RP
                            Greg Olson - RP
                            Alejandro Pena - SP/RP
                            Dennis Rasmussen - SP
                            Jeff Russell - RP
                            John Smiley - SP
                            John Smoltz - SP
                            Ed Whitson - SP
                            Eric Show - SP
                            Bobby Witt - SP

                            Just ran through the 1989 pitchers on baseball-reference to see how many of these current Hall of Fame inductees and candidates started out and actually pitched effectively in the 1980s. Not a bad group. Curt Schilling was still just 22 and only appeared in a few games in '88 and '89. There are still a ton more pitchers that will slowly, one by one, pop into my mind for the next day or two. Unless I cheat and look up the other years too and post all the star pitchers or other big names, phenom-hopefuls, and one-hit wonders.
                            "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

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                            • #44
                              No star power in this game:

                              "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

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                              • #45
                                500 Home Runs for Reggie Jackson

                                Here's Reggie getting his big clout off the Royals' Charlie Leibrandt:

                                "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

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